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Ketosis?

Gms585

Gms585

VIP Member
Mar 17, 2017
610
330
#13
Have you ever tried ginger?...U can get it at publix or any grocery store that sales seasons...Get the clove form...Chew or suck on it through out the day...It does wonders for bad breath...It does take a little getting use too to begin with, however, for me, it kills bad breath better than otc products designed for bad breath...Might work for ya....
I dont do this diet often enough and I'm married so When i need to do it i just deal.
Long term though I guess I would try suckn on them gingers.
You just pick any ginger or are some better then others? Joking
 
shortz

shortz

Beard of Knowledge VIP
May 6, 2013
3,107
891
#14
@shortz
I know that I generally agreed with that original post, however, I've been giving it a lot of thought.
My situation is that I carry a lot of visceral fat that is difficult to target through more traditional dieting. I am concerned that simple calorie restriction would require such an extreme deficit that would do more harm than good. On the surface, with the exception of my belly, I appear quite lean. I carry little sub utaneous fat. In the past, when I was very lean, with visible abs obliques etc. I still measured 17-18% by underwater weighing.
Now as a middle aged male, I am concerned about the effects on my overall health. It seems that everything you read says that this type fat deposition is an indicator of all sorts of negative health markers.
How do I reduce that fat without dropping 60lbs?
It's hard to say if there are issues outside of age that are causing this. It's most often just an issue of age, but certainly before you set out you should just make sure that you don't have any metabolic issues.

Everyone is going to be a little different. Just because I don't usually recommend Keto doesn't mean every diet that I would write would mean high carbs. In fact, as the diet goes on, I manipulate macros more and more. If you aren't constantly reassessing every 6 weeks or so, then you're not doing it often enough. In fact, it could happen in as short of a period as 4 weeks. So by the time you're nearing your goal, you could potentially be on a low to moderate carb intake.

Are you taking Hgh? Hgh can be a fickle thing too. It will help you lean out, yet it can exacerbate any potential metabolic syndrome that you might already be developing.

I have one more thing to recommend, but I'll shoot you a PM about it a little bit later when I have more time
 
OldManStrength

OldManStrength

VIP Member
Apr 8, 2015
981
249
#15
I'm sure u will get all kinds of opinions, but fro experience, I started at 275 and needed up 234lb in 6 months, this was a combo of ketosis, then just low carb, high protein, cycles, it got to the point in kerosine, when my vision and memory was effected, so I had to add carbs, 4 months in I changed to calorie deficit, kept carbs lower than protein, and made sure my fat was up there too, I was way happier on the fat, protein, lower carb.....

To each their own, be careful on keto for long periods of time.
 
MrRippedZilla

MrRippedZilla

VIP Member
Feb 18, 2015
9
6
#16
Well I for sure do not have enough knowledge to debate it...However, My thread/thoughts were based on my limited studies of ketosis...Correct Me please as I'm only trying to learn...

So, if by reducing crabs the body will use fat for energy, stored and consumed, how would this not keep a person lean and at less risk for gaining/storing fat in the fat tissue?...Also, By being able to consume more protein and fat, which the two work in harmony, or this is what I thought the case to be, how could one not put his body in a muscle gain status?...

Also, wouldn't this be ideal for diabetics?...Just Asking...
By reducing carbs the body may increase fat oxidation (fat for energy) but, without an energy deficit to coincide with it, it will not lead to net fat loss - which is what matters here.
Keto is not suitable for bulking for the simple reason that replacing carbs with fats = less anabolic environment. Fat does nothing for muscle growth, while carbs do plenty. Again, unless your a beginner, an energy surplus is still necessary for growth.

The mistake I see here is focusing on macros over energy when the latter is clearly more important.
If you want to cut, keto works just fine for some people (usuall insulin resistant people, more on this later). If you want to bulk, it makes no sense at all. At least have some carbs around workouts or do some sort of cyclical thing if you don't feel great with a higher carb intake. Or go with keto and accept minimal results.
Of course you can adopt a recomp approach, which is what your sort of hinting at I think, but realize that this is inefficient vs traditional cutting/bulking phases. Not that I'm against it, the vast majority of my clients stay super lean year round and kind of need a "recomp" approach, just realize that its not really great for most people over the long term.

As for diabetics, dealing with T2M since that's the only one I have enough experience with, if we accept that insulin resistance is the primary cause then yes, keto diets would be a better choice. Insulin resistance & carb intolerance are, for the sake of simplicity, the same thing here. Of course if you consider it to be an insulin deficiency issue, rather than pure resistance, then it becomes a mixed picture.

I'm rambling so back to the original topic...
There is no advantage to running a keto diet permanently for generally healthy folks. In fact, I a willing to bet that its actually an unhealthy process especially for women (I have seen bloodwork to support this position).
Doing it for a cut, fine. For a bulk, inefficient. Anything else long term, potentially unhealthy.
 
BackAtIt

BackAtIt

MuscleHead
Oct 3, 2016
278
51
#17
By reducing carbs the body may increase fat oxidation (fat for energy) but, without an energy deficit to coincide with it, it will not lead to net fat loss - which is what matters here.
Keto is not suitable for bulking for the simple reason that replacing carbs with fats = less anabolic environment. Fat does nothing for muscle growth, while carbs do plenty. Again, unless your a beginner, an energy surplus is still necessary for growth.

The mistake I see here is focusing on macros over energy when the latter is clearly more important.
If you want to cut, keto works just fine for some people (usuall insulin resistant people, more on this later). If you want to bulk, it makes no sense at all. At least have some carbs around workouts or do some sort of cyclical thing if you don't feel great with a higher carb intake. Or go with keto and accept minimal results.
Of course you can adopt a recomp approach, which is what your sort of hinting at I think, but realize that this is inefficient vs traditional cutting/bulking phases. Not that I'm against it, the vast majority of my clients stay super lean year round and kind of need a "recomp" approach, just realize that its not really great for most people over the long term.

As for diabetics, dealing with T2M since that's the only one I have enough experience with, if we accept that insulin resistance is the primary cause then yes, keto diets would be a better choice. Insulin resistance & carb intolerance are, for the sake of simplicity, the same thing here. Of course if you consider it to be an insulin deficiency issue, rather than pure resistance, then it becomes a mixed picture.

I'm rambling so back to the original topic...
There is no advantage to running a keto diet permanently for generally healthy folks. In fact, I a willing to bet that its actually an unhealthy process especially for women (I have seen bloodwork to support this position).
Doing it for a cut, fine. For a bulk, inefficient.


Thank you for the reply!...Why wouldn't one gain muscle if the calories were in surplus with keto?...What are the carbs doing that makes them so important for muscle building?...Just asking Zilla, not doubting your knoweldge...Trying to learn...
 
MrRippedZilla

MrRippedZilla

VIP Member
Feb 18, 2015
9
6
#18
Thank you for the reply!...Why wouldn't one gain muscle if the calories were in surplus with keto?...What are the carbs doing that makes them so important for muscle building?...Just asking Zilla, not doubting your knoweldge...Trying to learn...
You can build muscle on a keto bulk; it will simply be less compared to carbs being in the mix and hence, inefficient/minimal results.

To break this down...
The primary stimulus for muscle growth is progressive resistance training, not protein intake. Someone who lifts but has sub-optimal protein intake will still generate better results than someone with good protein intake but sits on their asses all day.
So, if resistance training is the primary stimulus for growth, what is the main energy source utilized to fuel this stimulus? Answer: carbs. Its an anaerobic activity. So if your on a low carb/keto bulk, you won't have sufficient primary fuel available and as a result your progress in the gym will be limited in comparison. By limiting your progress in the gym, your limiting your results. Fairly simple.
So, what are the carbs doing that makes them important for muscle building? They're fueling your training sessions, which is the primary stimulus for muscle building.

We also have to consider the hormonal implications of all this but a) its not entirely relevant if your enhanced and b) its applicable to severe reductions in all 3 macros. So the lesson is really to not limit anything to the extreme.

This makes it sounds like fat is pretty useless for body recomping, and that's because kind of is...certainly compared to protein & carbs. ot entirely relevant but I did speak about this from a fat loss perspective in this article if your interested: https://www.ugbodybuilding.com/threads/23613-Why-low-protein-high-fat-keto-diets-are-****ing-stupid
 
gunslinger

gunslinger

VIP Member
Sep 19, 2010
1,192
313
#19
Honestly you haven't noticed the breath thing?
I brush twice daily and keep gum or mints handy so I really haven't noticed.


As for not having energy in the gym I find I have more. For ppl like me its great. Anything over 100 grams of carbs per day from any source just makes me fat no matter my activity level. What good is having full muscles if they are covered in an inch of fat? The difference between this and a regular low carb diet is the amount of fat eaten. If you eat the way you should you are never hungry even on very low calories. Use too I'd starve on anything less than 3,000 calories per day. These days I average 1,500 per day and feel great.
 
Last edited:
BackAtIt

BackAtIt

MuscleHead
Oct 3, 2016
278
51
#20
You can build muscle on a keto bulk; it will simply be less compared to carbs being in the mix and hence, inefficient/minimal results.

To break this down...
The primary stimulus for muscle growth is progressive resistance training, not protein intake. Someone who lifts but has sub-optimal protein intake will still generate better results than someone with good protein intake but sits on their asses all day.
So, if resistance training is the primary stimulus for growth, what is the main energy source utilized to fuel this stimulus? Answer: carbs. Its an anaerobic activity. So if your on a low carb/keto bulk, you won't have sufficient primary fuel available and as a result your progress in the gym will be limited in comparison. By limiting your progress in the gym, your limiting your results. Fairly simple.
So, what are the carbs doing that makes them important for muscle building? They're fueling your training sessions, which is the primary stimulus for muscle building.

We also have to consider the hormonal implications of all this but a) its not entirely relevant if your enhanced and b) its applicable to severe reductions in all 3 macros. So the lesson is really to not limit anything to the extreme.

This makes it sounds like fat is pretty useless for body recomping, and that's because kind of is...certainly compared to protein & carbs. ot entirely relevant but I did speak about this from a fat loss perspective in this article if your interested: https://www.ugbodybuilding.com/threads/23613-Why-low-protein-high-fat-keto-diets-are-****ing-stupid

Good read!... You explained it nicely!!!... Last question... If protein will supply the OAA, why not go high with protein and mediocre with fat?
 
MrRippedZilla

MrRippedZilla

VIP Member
Feb 18, 2015
9
6
#21
Good read!... You explained it nicely!!!... Last question... If protein will supply the OAA, why not go high with protein and mediocre with fat?
Because most people don't logic and cannot help but focus on the minutia.
These folks obsess over whether or not they are in a ketogenic environment and worry about protein's insulinogenic impact on this environment. Never mind the fact that a keto environment simply doesn't matter for body recomp, which is what drew their interest in keto diets in the first place.

Of course you'll find that bbers and the fitness community in general do actually go with higher protein, lower fat keto diets. Well, most do. A new trend of low protein/traditional keto morons has cropped up that should be ignored if you value or time & sanity.

So yes, high protein/mediocre fat would be better than moderate protein/higher fat for body comp :)
 
BackAtIt

BackAtIt

MuscleHead
Oct 3, 2016
278
51
#22
Because most people don't logic and cannot help but focus on the minutia.
These folks obsess over whether or not they are in a ketogenic environment and worry about protein's insulinogenic impact on this environment. Never mind the fact that a keto environment simply doesn't matter for body recomp, which is what drew their interest in keto diets in the first place.

Of course you'll find that bbers and the fitness community in general do actually go with higher protein, lower fat keto diets. Well, most do. A new trend of low protein/traditional keto morons has cropped up that should be ignored if you value or time & sanity.

So yes, high protein/mediocre fat would be better than moderate protein/higher fat for body comp :)

Again, thanks for the reply, Zillia!!!!...I guess the reason I'm so hung up on this subject is because I've always been told, by most anyway, that when you cut you will loose some of the lean mass that was gained...I can't stand knowing after working my can off to gain it that I would lose even an ounce, lol!...I'm trying so desperatly to figure out how to at least not lose lean mass when cutting...It would be even better to be able to gain lean mass as one cuts...I know you guys are probably the same way...I don't know how many times i have had to start over thru out the years and it absolutely gripes my ole buttocks to the max to loose after putting the time and effort in to amass it...
 
ogre

ogre

VIP Member
Dec 18, 2016
99
48
#23
I have a hard labor type job and while keto diet stripped fat of it also left me little energy for my workouts.After a couple of weeks I felt like shit.I did drop 10 lbs quick.My body just loves carbs.I guess everyone's different.
 
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