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Gyno or Lower Chest Fat

ketsugo

ketsugo

MuscleHead
Sep 10, 2011
2,652
486
You could start with the link I gave you in this thread. There you will find a couple of examples of that contemporary evidence based literature. If you want to see more contemporary evidence based literature on AAS that will take you months to read through, try pubmed.

You know, it's funny how things change and not always for the better. We have easier access to accurate information than ever before and you'd think anyone who's even remotely serious about training would want to take advantage of it, yet more people today seem content to rely on hearsay from the bros than they did twenty years ago. I don't get it.

When I first started out in this online racket on misc.fitness.weights (that's all there was at the time) back in the early '90's, it was known for two things: epic flame wars and a strict adherence to the scientific literature. And even though access to that literature was more difficult back then, bro science wasn't tolerated. Giving advice you couldn't back it up with citations got you torn to shreds. I'm being serious. I get a kick out of these guys nowadays that complain about pissing matches at the first sign of an online argument. Compared to mfw, the forums today are about as aggressive as a lesbian poetry recital. And often just as boring.





Deca and Anadrol are both capable of inducing gynecomastia via their effects on E-2. If you got gyno while using trenbolone, it either wasn't due to the trenbolone or, and this is quite likely, the trenbolone you were using was something else.

The bottom line is if you got gyno from AAS use, it can be attributed solely to how the compounds you were using affected E-2.





Interesting statement here. If your gyno was caused by prolactin as you seem to saying, don't you find it ironic that Letrozole, an AI, "reversed it?"


Prolactin can still be effected by estrogen levels . So sometimes if we control estrogen then we don't set an envirinment to increase prolactin . Some veterans insist that keep estrogen in check and no need for worry of prolactin. Studies lie, aren't accurate or may not point to application we need. Find veterans that have been doing it for years - at gym develop rapport with any competitors - access them too
 
R

Ranveerrage

New Member
Jun 11, 2014
1
0
gyno from several years, need to eradicate

Is surgery is the only cure to get rid of gyno. It was there after 16 years old when I was working out when they started showing up...didn't have proper knowledge that time...i tried juice later on in age of 24 for very short 4 mnths time or something...i have them till right now and need expert suggestion as have all the body going accurate but really difficult to get rid of these.
 
C

CBS

Senior Member
Jan 7, 2014
183
59
CBS please don't post a link and tell me to go off and read it .. as a discussion board , its best you bring the relevant information forward for discussion.

A recurring annoyance is that forum members are often telling other members to go off and read studies and this that and the other when the board is created in view on discussion. You wont catch me sifting hour after hour though pubmed studies , Ill leave that for those that are that way inclined.



Since you're not interested in looking at the actual studies and prefer to rely on more subjective evidence like personal opinion, perhaps the following will be more to your liking. I don't normally use personal opinion to build a case because I don't normally argue with people that refuse to accept actual scientific evidence, but since you're more comfortable with this type of discussion, I'll make an exception.

These are Meso posts from Bill Roberts discussing the non-issue of 19-nor induced increases in PRL. There are many more such posts from Roberts discussing this issue on Meso and I invite you to read them, but if these don't convince you, nothing will.



Why do you say that trenbolone is a progestin (other than having 1% of the potency of progesterone) and why do you say it increases prolactin?


These claims are always made without a trace of evidence, and the only evidence there is, is against them.

https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/tren-dick.134297810/#post-727265



'


Aw geez, you're right, I've never used trenbolone or any anabolic steroids.


And, huh, a steroid profile says that trenbolone increases prolactin. You really have me there! Surely all persons who write steroid profiles are qualified.
That's why virtually all of them read the same -- or is the reason plagiarism?


But anyhow if you believe that statements from the authors of steroid profiles are proof positive, then you have a bit of a conundrum here, though it seems you don't realize that.


On the cabergoline and bromocriptine: did you stop and think that these are prosexual agents in individuals that don't have elevated prolactin? So where this is the improvement, it proves nothing with regard to prolactin.


Or with regard to actual lactation, do you have evidence of a single person suffering lactation from using actual trenbolone -- by which I mean either trenbolone derived from Finaplix H, or trenbolone that has been validated by a lab analysis that the user has PERSONALLY commissioned rather than received from the steroid dealer?



How much you want to bet you don't have a trace of actual evidence?


https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/tren-dick.134297810/#post-727280




I highly doubt you know a single person who has lactated from actual trenbolone (see above post for meaning of the above.)


If you say you do you are the first such person ever to claim knowing such a person.


As to why you've never heard of me, who would expect a steroid guy so knowledgeable as yourself to have heard of me?


On the 19-nor matter: try finding a single reference from actual medical or scientific literature which claims that the alleged structure activity of "19-nor must equal progestin" exists. That claim is an attempt of amateurs at medicinal chemistry, rather than being a fact. Very many structures exist which are 19-nor and which are not progestins.


On the activity as a progestin: I've already given you the figure. The potency is 1% that of progesterone itself, which (relative to the levels involved and the potency of progesterone, which requires a relatively high blood level for much effect) is negligible.


It's fantasy, the "trenbolone is a progestin" thing and that is why you can find nothing substantive to back it up,
unless one calls the scribblings of the Dave Duchaines, Joe Palumbos, and anyone taking my surname as a pen-name as being substantive.

https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/tren-dick.134297810/page-2#post-727307


You are the king of irrelevant. Who is talking about Deca? I surely was not above, nor is the thread title about that.


Additionally your reading comprehension seems poor. I made clear more than once that it is a key point whether a sold-as "trenbolone" product is indeed trenbolone, and how that may be known. It's an error to claim that a compound has a given activity when not knowing whether the substance taken is in fact that compound, particularly where that compound is very often counterfeited. It is possible though that the difficulty here is not reading comprehension, but intellect. I'm not sure which it is, but one or the other is clearly lacking.


I'm sorry for your ignorance. I hope you are young so that there will be time for that to be corrected. On the other hand, there are those in whom ignorance runs bone deep.


Sorry about your lactation too. Perhaps you'll find a better source for steroid information than what has led you to your outcome there, but frankly, it's pretty obvious you could trip over such a source and not know it, so probably it would be wishful thinking in your case to expect a more knowledgeable future.

https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/tren-dick.134297810/page-2#post-727323

And besides that, those claiming prolactin as the enemy never (so far as I can tell) bother actually measuing prolactin with a blood test.


Prolactin, incidentally, often is increased with testosterone cycles where an antiaromatase isn't used.


Nor, in the case of blaming trenbolone, do they bother with a single piece of evidence to show that trenboline increases (allegedly) prolactin.



As for progestagenic effect, there's no evidence of significant progestagenic effect, and there is evidence that effect is insignificant (potency only 1% that of progesterone itself.)

https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/no-fina-dick-here.23903/page-2#post-787296

That is asserted by many, but with apparent lack of care about having evidence before saying things. Usually there is no measurement of prolactin level when claiming high prolactin as a culprit. Further, prolactin is often elevated when using testosterone, and there is evidence that testosterone is about as likely to elevate prolactin as nandrolone is.


Trenbolone doesn't increase estrogen. Nandrolone doesn't increase estrogen greatly.

https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/can-someone-answer-this-for-me.134308680/#post-769759

"Must" is a little strong... I've never used it in a cycle and done fine. This is true also for very many trenbolone users.


There's no evidence, so far as I can tell, that anyone has ever provided that trenbolone increases prolactin, and there is veterinary evidence against it.



(Experiencing a prosexual effect from adding cabergoline or pramipexole doesn't demonstrate that prolactin was elevated, as these can be prosexual without elevated prolactin.)

https://thinksteroids.com/community...from-tren-cycle-change.134311030/#post-779200
 
ItalianMuscle

ItalianMuscle

Drama Queen senior Vip
Sep 1, 2010
2,563
969
Is surgery is the only cure to get rid of gyno. It was there after 16 years old when I was working out when they started showing up...didn't have proper knowledge that time...i tried juice later on in age of 24 for very short 4 mnths time or something...i have them till right now and need expert suggestion as have all the body going accurate but really difficult to get rid of these.

Surgery is the most logical and practical thing to have done for gyno. It falls under the breast cancer act of 1998, and most insurances will cover the procedure 100%. My advice, go to a few different surgeons, and go with the one you feel the most comfortable with, and that has done this type of procedure before. Usually doctors that specialize in breast augmentation are excellent choices.
I had the entire gland removed. If the surgeon leaves any behind, there is a greater chance of the gyno returning, and youll be in the same boat again. Some fear that if the entire gland is removed, it will leave an indentation, etc. I think that varies from person to person. Ive had no such indentation, and greater self confidence when my shirt is off.
 
Jasthace

Jasthace

MuscleHead
May 29, 2011
581
89
Bill is talking way off the facts about what progestins are .. his all over the place .. I really aren't going to go into all the comments he's made ..

but heres the basici of what Progestins are .. { Progesterone is just one of the many hormones produced from Progestins }


Progestogens as precursors to other steroids In the first step in the steroidogenic pathway, the cholesterol molecules are converted into pregnenolone ("P5") which serves as a precursor to three other progestogens (progesterone/"P4", 17α-hydroxypregnenolone, and 17α-hydroxyprogesterone). These progestogens in turn are precursors to all other steroids, including the estrogens, androgens, mineralocorticoids, and glucocorticoids. Thus, all tissues producing steroids, such as the adrenals, ovaries, and testes, must be capable of producing progestogens.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progestogen

As I say, when I take progestin steroids { which as the information above shows can convert to many other hormones, unlike specific Testosterone} I can experience mild lactation... you cant argue with that and say where's the evidence, when Im holding a drop of mucus on my fingers Ive just squeezed out of my nipple..

Bill is just another one of the many that seem go by the theory "if you can't dazzle them with Brilliance , baffle them with bullshit."
 
ItalianMuscle

ItalianMuscle

Drama Queen senior Vip
Sep 1, 2010
2,563
969
Bill is just another one of the many that seem go by the theory "if you can't dazzle them with Brilliance , baffle them with bullshit."

And some are 'Vets' in this forum..LOL!
 
C

CBS

Senior Member
Jan 7, 2014
183
59
Bill is talking way off the facts about what progestins are .. his all over the place .. I really aren't going to go into all the comments he's made ..

Shocker. Too bad, though. I'd love to see you explain how Roberts has his facts wrong.

Regards

CBS
 
Jasthace

Jasthace

MuscleHead
May 29, 2011
581
89
I'd love to see you explain how Roberts has his facts wrong.

Regards

CBS


I already did....

Progestogens as precursors to other steroids In the first step in the steroidogenic pathway, the cholesterol molecules are converted into pregnenolone ("P5") which serves as a precursor to three other progestogens (progesterone/"P4", 17α-hydroxypregnenolone, and 17α-hydroxyprogesterone). These progestogens in turn are precursors to all other steroids, including the estrogens, androgens, mineralocorticoids, and glucocorticoids. Thus, all tissues producing steroids, such as the adrenals, ovaries, and testes, must be capable of producing progestogens.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progestogen

That was easy
 
Jasthace

Jasthace

MuscleHead
May 29, 2011
581
89
High levels of estrogen inhibit lactation.
Estrogen levels also drop at delivery and remain low for the first several months of breastfeeding.[SUP][3][/SUP] Breastfeeding mothers should avoid estrogen-based birth control methods, as a spike in estrogen levels may reduce a mother's milk supply.

Progestogens in turn are precursors to all other steroids, including the estrogens, androgens, mineralocorticoids, and glucocorticoids. Thus, all tissues producing steroids, such as the adrenals, ovaries, and testes,prostate must be capable of producing progestogens.

One of the main regulators of the production of prolactin from the pituitary gland is the hormone called dopamine, which is produced by the hypothalamus, the part of the brain directly above the pituitary gland. Dopamine restrains prolactin production, so the more dopamine there is, the less prolactin is released. Prolactin itself enhances the secretion of dopamine, so this creates a negative feedback loop.In humans, prolactin is produced both in the front portion of the pituitary gland (anterior pituitary gland) and in a range of sites elsewhere in the body.

Lactotroph cells in the pituitary gland produce prolactin, where it is stored in small containers called vesicles. Prolactin is released into the bloodstream by a process called exocytosis. Human prolactin is also produced in the uterus, immune cells, brain, breasts, prostate, skin and adipose tissue.


High levels of estrogen inhibit lactation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prolactin

 
D

Docd187123

MuscleHead
Dec 2, 2013
628
192
High levels of estrogen inhibit lactation.
Estrogen levels also drop at delivery and remain low for the first several months of breastfeeding.[SUP][3][/SUP] Breastfeeding mothers should avoid estrogen-based birth control methods, as a spike in estrogen levels may reduce a mother's milk supply.

Progestogens in turn are precursors to all other steroids, including the estrogens, androgens, mineralocorticoids, and glucocorticoids. Thus, all tissues producing steroids, such as the adrenals, ovaries, and testes,prostate must be capable of producing progestogens.

One of the main regulators of the production of prolactin from the pituitary gland is the hormone called dopamine, which is produced by the hypothalamus, the part of the brain directly above the pituitary gland. Dopamine restrains prolactin production, so the more dopamine there is, the less prolactin is released. Prolactin itself enhances the secretion of dopamine, so this creates a negative feedback loop.In humans, prolactin is produced both in the front portion of the pituitary gland (anterior pituitary gland) and in a range of sites elsewhere in the body.

Lactotroph cells in the pituitary gland produce prolactin, where it is stored in small containers called vesicles. Prolactin is released into the bloodstream by a process called exocytosis. Human prolactin is also produced in the uterus, immune cells, brain, breasts, prostate, skin and adipose tissue.


High levels of estrogen inhibit lactation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prolactin



Britannica said:
One example of a prolactin-stimulating factor for which a role has been identified is estrogen, which stimulates prolactin synthesis and secretion in the late stages of pregnancy to prepare the mammary glands for lactation.

Estrogens provide a well-studied positive control over prolactin synthesis and secretion. The increasing blood concentrations of estrogen during late pregnancy appear responsible for the elevated levels of prolactin that are necessary to prepare the mammary gland for lactation at the end of gestation.

http://arbl.cvmbs.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/endocrine/hypopit/prolactin.html
 
D

Docd187123

MuscleHead
Dec 2, 2013
628
192
Res Vet Sci. 1981 Jan;30(1):7-13.Growth hormone, insulin, prolactin and total thyroxine in the plasma of sheep implanted with the anabolic steroid trenbolone acetate alone or with oestradiol.
Donaldson IA, Hart IC, Heitzman RJ.
Abstract
The mode of action of the anabolic steroid trenbolone acetate (19-norandrost-4,9,11-trien-3-one-17-acetate) was studied through the endogenous hormonal response of castrated male sheep to subcutaneous implantation of 140 mg of trenbolone acetate and 20 mg of oestradiol both separately and in combination. Radioimmunoassay of delta-4,9,11-trienic steroids and oestradiol-17 beta in plasma confirmed that simultaneous administration of trenbolone acetate with oestradiol led to a significantly greater persistence of oestradiol-17 beta residues in plasma (P less than 0.05) than with implantation of oestradiol alone. Oestradiol treatment increased concentrations of growth hormone and insulin (P less than 0.05; P less than 0.001 respectively) in plasma samples collected weekly. Trenbolone acetate by itself had no significant effect and the oestrogenic response was blocked on the simultaneous implantation of trenbolone acetate and oestradiol (despite higher plasma levels of oestradiol-17 beta with this treatment). Plasma total thyroxine was markedly depressed to 45 per cent of its basal level by trenbolone acetate, alone or with oestradiol (P less than 0.001) and depressed to 80 per cent of basal by oestradiol treatment alone (P less than 0.001). Plasma prolactin was unaltered by the above treatments.
PMID: 7017853 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

CLINICAL CASE SEMINAR
The Novel Use of Very High Doses of Cabergoline and a Combination of Testosterone and an Aromatase Inhibitor in the Treatment of a Giant Prolactinoma
MARY P. GILLAM, STEWART MIDDLER, DANIEL J. FREED, AND MARK E. MOLITCH
Division of Endocrinology, Metabolism, and Molecular Medicine (M.P.G., M.E.M.), Northwestern University, The Feinberg Medical School, Chicago, Illinois 60611; and Cedars-Sinai Medical Center (S.M.), University of California at Los Angeles School of Medicine, Los Angeles, California 90048




Despite the effectiveness of dopamine agonists in attenu- ating hyperprolactinemia and inducing tumor shrinkage, hy- pogonadism persists in up to 50% of cases of males with macroprolactinomas, even in individuals in whom PRL lev- els are normalized (5, 8, 9). Consequently, androgen replace- ment is required in many of these patients. In general, tes- tosterone replacement is straightforward; however, testosterone replacement in this case was associated with secondary elevations in PRL levels. Evidence for the causal relationship between testosterone replacement and a rise in PRL was suggested by the observation that PRL levels de- clined when testosterone was temporarily discontinued and rose again with its readministration. We postulate that the rise in PRL was a result of the aromatization of testosterone to estradiol, which in turn stimulated PRL synthesis and release. An accumulating body of evidence suggests that estrogen plays an integral role in the pathogenesis and pro- gression of lactotroph tumors (14). Specifically, estrogen ex- erts a stimulatory effect upon PRL secretion by disrupting the inhibitory influence of dopamine; chronic exposure to es- trogen functionally uncouples the anterior pituitary D2 re- ceptor from its G protein-coupled receptor (15). Estradiol in vitro stimulates PRL gene transcription and prevents the ability of dopamine agonists to inhibit PRL synthesis and secretion (16***8211;20). In vivo, large doses of estrogens have in- duced prolactinomas in rats and may induce them in humans as well (21***8211;23).
The frequency of testosterone-associated increases in PRL levels is unknown, because it has not been formally ad- dressed by any of the major trials evaluating dopamine ag- onist therapy in the treatment of males with macroprolacti- nomas who subsequently receive androgen replacement. In the only other report in the literature that describes this phenomenon, Prior et al. (24) reported a patient with a 6-cm invasive macroprolactinoma (initial PRL, 13,969 ***56319;***56320;g/liter) who responded to bromocriptine with a 63% reduction in PRL levels and the disappearance of his visual field defect. Testosterone replacement was followed by visual field de- terioration, increased tumor size, and return of PRL levels to baseline values. Indeed, this dramatic response is highly unusual. Testosterone replacement in the patient reported
here led to a more modest PRL rise. Nevertheless, the re- sponse was clinically significant because it required the in- troduction of a second agent (anastrazole) to ultimately at- tenuate this effect. A study that specifically analyzes PRL responses after testosterone replacement in hypogondal males with prolactinomas would be necessary to determine whether this response is a unique behavioral characteristic of rare prolactinomas or is one that is observed more commonly.
In the present case, the use of an aromatase inhibitor in conjunction with cabergoline facilitated testosterone replace- ment, because it prevented the secondary rise in PRL and, ultimately, the potential for tumor enlargement. The aro- matase inhibitor was specific for this effect, because discon- tinuation of anastrozole again led to rises in PRL levels. Interestingly, PRL levels reached their nadir during the pe- riod of aromatase inhibitor therapy. These levels were lower than at any other time point, including the period during which the patient was taking his maximum dose of caber- goline (21 mg/wk) without receiving testosterone. This sug- gests that further lowering of even relatively low levels of estradiol appears to have been beneficial. Consequently, the coadministration of very high doses of cabergoline with anastrozole may have permitted PRL levels to remain low for a duration sufficient to restore the normal pulsatility of GnRH. This in turn led to recovery of the endogenous go- nadal axis.
An alternative explanation for the recovery of endogenous testosterone production in this patient may relate to the powerful effect of estradiol deficiency on stimulation of GnRH neurons. Several recent studies have confirmed the observation that lack of estradiol serves as a more potent stimulator of gonadotropin secretion than testosterone de- ficiency on a molar basis, at both the hypothalamic and pituitary level (25***8211;29).
Short-term administration of aromatase inhibitors has not been associated with adverse effects upon protein or inter- mediary metabolism or a negative impact on body compo- sition, muscle strength, or measures of bone turnover in healthy eugonadal men (30). However, the long-term effects of aromatase inhibitors are uncertain. As observed in men afflicted with mutations in cytochrome p450 aromatase en- zyme or in the estrogen receptor ***56319;***56321; gene, chronic estrogen deficiency may have important clinical implications (31). In these individuals, estrogen deficiency has been associated with abnormal carbohydrate/lipid metabolism, abnormal skeletal development, disordered gonadotropin secretion, and infertility. Whether these effects would similarly de- velop in postpubertal males is not known.
In summary, this case illustrates several intriguing aspects of the management of a giant prolactinoma demonstrating relative dopamine agonist resistance, including 1) the step- wise reduction in PRL levels afforded by stepwise increases in cabergoline to very high doses; 2) the disproportionate degree of pituitary tumor shrinkage despite a dramatic low- ering of PRL levels; 3) the facilitation of testosterone replace- ment by an aromatase inhibitor; and 4) eventual recovery of endogenous gonadal function. Extraordinary pharmacolog- ical maneuvers may permit successful medical treatment of some patients with invasive macroprolactinomas.


The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism 87(10):4447***8211;4451 Printed in U.S.A. Copyright © 2002 by The Endocrine Society doi: 10.1210/jc.2002-0204


10char.....
 
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