Gyno or Lower Chest Fat

[ItalianMuscle]

Anyone that has gyno, do what I did. Get the surgery, have them take the entire gland out completely, and be done with it. No need to second guess anything, and you all can quit wasting money on lactating titties and temporary fixes..

 

[Jasthace]

Hmm ok I'll bite. Let's say a guy is taking 750 mg of testosterone weekly for 2 months. Then he adds deca. Few weeks after he adds deca he has deca dick and lactating tits. .

Yes I have experienced these symptoms only when using Deca, Tren or Anadrol in conjunction with Testosterone. Not Test with any other AAS.

http://www.steroidal.com/steroids-side-effects/prolactin/

Prolactin is primarily manufactured and secreted by the anterior pituitary gland, it is also manufactured in varying degrees in the breasts, lymphocytes, leukocytes, decidua, myometrium, and the prostate gland[3] [4]. Prolactin secretion is regulated by the hypothalamus via the endocrine neurons that monitor all endocrine activity in the body as a whole....

Although Prolactin does not have as much of a direct importance to the anabolic steroid user as something like Estrogen does, there are a plethora of anecdotal reports of anabolic steroid using individuals who have used particular compounds and reported much higher than normal Prolactin levels. Many individuals have even provided their blood test results as anecdotal evidence to attest to this. However, there has been wild variation in the trends concerning the Prolactin issue with anabolic steroids, and much of this is due to the fact that there unfortunately does not exist as much research on many anabolic steroids as we would like, and so there is no solid clinical data from which we can draw conclusions (e.g. the direct relation of a Progestin such as Trenbolone or Deca-Durabolin (Nandrolone) on Prolactin levels). Until the day that studies on such hypotheses are directly conducted, we will have to work with the data that science has currently provided us.

 

[1bigun11]

FYI
I evaluate MANY BB for nothing mate and do NOT accept patients from forums PERIOD. I do this to ensure BB KNOW there is another approach to BB using the science of TODAY rather than yesteryears news which you seem fixated upon.

You can believe what you want, but to suggest Doctors are evaluating athletes exclusively on a monetary basis, reflects your own bias and or personal experience.

My personal experience after some TWENTY YEARS OF PRACTICE? Not once have I detected a causative "elevated prolactin level" because of 19-Nor AAS

Jim

No. I was just pointing out that bodybuilders and power lifters realized from personal experience that steroids worked to build muscle and power about 20 years before the medical profession would acknowledge it.

Does that hurt your feelings?

 

[dr jim]

Hmm ok I'll bite. Let's say a guy is taking 750 mg of testosterone weekly for 2 months. Then he adds deca. Few weeks after he adds deca he has deca dick and lactating tits. What has changed? If nor 19 aas like npp, tren, deca do not induce prolactin as u insist then when would merely adding the nor 19 create the sides? Why would these same sides go away with the introduction of caber? I know several ppl that had this happen and were using an AI and the issues didn't go away until they used caber.

Fwiw I just keep my estro in check and don't personally use caber with nor19 aas. I've never had a libido or lactation issues when doing this. However I have also run 750mg of test with no AI and didn't get gyno.....surely my e2 was off the charts I was just painting the picture I'm not gyno prone.

No one can accurately answer that question because no LABS were performed. But I will tell you EVERY "lactating" AAS user I've evaluated for has an elevated E-2 level.

Interestingly some human studies have noted the presence of prolactin within the discharge of patients with galactorrhea, whom also have non-cyclical, enhanced E-2 production.

More importantly this has been observed in spite of NORMAL systemic prolactin levels. This finding suggests an elevation of E-2 is in part responsible for the local production of prolactin AND in those patients predisposed possibly Galactorrhea itself.

If this indeed the case, it would help explain why the varied breast changes occur in those using AAS, not withstanding a "normal" prolactin level.

Nevertheless I still believe it's important to emphasize the inciting event in ALL AAS associated "male breast changes" is mediated via E-2, and that is where therapy is best directed, IMO.

Regs
Jim

 

[dr jim]

No. I was just pointing out that bodybuilders and power lifters realized from personal experience that steroids worked to build muscle and power about 20 years before the medical profession would
acknowledge it.

Does that hurt your feelings?

--------------------------------------------
How ironic you acknowledge the medical communities failings some FOURTY YEARS ago but are unwilling to admit your own ignorance of contemporary evidence based literature. (A considerable portion of which clearly REFUTES yesteryears bro lore, and the 19-Nor prolactin connection is one of many examples.)

Hey speaking of which, what's the current bro dictum on "AI rebound"?

I for one, will certainly admit the medical communities 1970 belief system was structured around fiction rather than fact. Yet once established this "fact" became entrenched as dogma and like a cancer infiltrated many medical tests, articles and writings! (Hmm history has a tendency of repeating itself after all, because "bro science" is the erred medical communities offspring, lol)

Nonetheless since the 1970s science has come a long way toward understanding so much more about PEDs, especially AAS, their complications, indications, delayed and immediate adverse effects etc.

I welcome you to join, but you seem fixated on the errors of the past and what medicine didn't know rather than what has been learned.

Good luck
Jim

 

[Fanofiron]

Interesting ideas for sure. Many experienced vets have told me that most men require high estrogen as well as high prolactin to get prolactin based gyno. As I mentioned I don't use caber and have not had any issues yet as long as I keep my estro in control. I usually get labs taken mid cycle to evaluate my AI' effective ness.
I don't get gyno from test to estro conversion either but I'm well aware high estrogen for a male is bad in many regards. Many guys can't see to wrap their head around the bro science of ohh I don't have gyno my estro levels are fine and don't use an AI on cycle. If I went by gyno feedback as my sole judge of my estro level I would never need and AI. This is hardly the case because I've used bunk AI before and had estro levels at 130 and still not gyno. My libido was down as my mood and my speculations were right. My AI was bunk....however I used labs to dictate this.

I've not gotten prolactin labs as the panel is seperate but it would be interesting to test all these theories with someone who claims to get "prolactin" based gyno with nor19 aas.

Food for thought guys

 

[Jasthace]

--------------------------------------------
but are unwilling to admit your own ignorance of contemporary evidence based literature. (A considerable portion of which clearly REFUTES yesteryears bro lore, and the 19-Nor prolactin connection is one of many examples.)

Good luck
Jim

.... there has been wild variation in the trends concerning the Prolactin issue with anabolic steroids, and much of this is due to the fact that there unfortunately does not exist as much research on many anabolic steroids as we would like, and so there is no solid clinical data from which we can draw conclusions (e.g. the direct relation of a Progestin such as Trenbolone or Deca-Durabolin (Nandrolone) on Prolactin levels). Until the day that studies on such hypotheses are directly conducted, we will have to work with the data that science has currently provided us.

What contemporary evidence based literature are you referring too ?

 

[1bigun11]

--------------------------------------------
How ironic you acknowledge the medical communities failings some FOURTY YEARS ago but are unwilling to admit your own ignorance of contemporary evidence based literature. (A considerable portion of which clearly REFUTES yesteryears bro lore, and the 19-Nor prolactin connection is one of many examples.)

Hey speaking of which, what's the current bro dictum on "AI rebound"?

I for one, will certainly admit the medical communities 1970 belief system was structured around fiction rather than fact. Yet once established this "fact" became entrenched as dogma and like a cancer infiltrated many medical tests, articles and writings! (Hmm history has a tendency of repeating itself after all, because "bro science" is the erred medical communities offspring, lol)

Nonetheless since the 1970s science has come a long way toward understanding so much more about PEDs, especially AAS, their complications, indications, delayed and immediate adverse effects etc.

I welcome you to join, but you seem fixated on the errors of the past and what medicine didn't know rather than what has been learned.

Good luck
Jim

Sorry Jim. But you responded to my comment more like a hurt little school girl than a true medical professional, which is why I had to ask whether your feelings were hurt.

By the way, despite the length and wordiness of your reply, you failed to answer the only question I had imposed. Try listening more and attacking less. Or better yet release some of that frustration in the gym. There are plenty of people here who could teach you how to lift if you need to learn.

 

[CBS]

.... there has been wild variation in the trends concerning the Prolactin issue with anabolic steroids, and much of this is due to the fact that there unfortunately does not exist as much research on many anabolic steroids as we would like, and so there is no solid clinical data from which we can draw conclusions (e.g. the direct relation of a Progestin such as Trenbolone or Deca-Durabolin (Nandrolone) on Prolactin levels). Until the day that studies on such hypotheses are directly conducted, we will have to work with the data that science has currently provided us.

What contemporary evidence based literature are you referring too ?

You could start with the link I gave you in this thread. There you will find a couple of examples of that contemporary evidence based literature. If you want to see more contemporary evidence based literature on AAS that will take you months to read through, try pubmed.

You know, it's funny how things change and not always for the better. We have easier access to accurate information than ever before and you'd think anyone who's even remotely serious about training would want to take advantage of it, yet more people today seem content to rely on hearsay from the bros than they did twenty years ago. I don't get it.

When I first started out in this online racket on misc.fitness.weights (that's all there was at the time) back in the early '90's, it was known for two things: epic flame wars and a strict adherence to the scientific literature. And even though access to that literature was more difficult back then, bro science wasn't tolerated. Giving advice you couldn't back it up with citations got you torn to shreds. I'm being serious. I get a kick out of these guys nowadays that complain about pissing matches at the first sign of an online argument. Compared to mfw, the forums today are about as aggressive as a lesbian poetry recital. And often just as boring.

Yes I have experienced these symptoms only when using Deca, Tren or Anadrol in conjunction with Testosterone. Not Test with any other AAS.

Deca and Anadrol are both capable of inducing gynecomastia via their effects on E-2. If you got gyno while using trenbolone, it either wasn't due to the trenbolone or, and this is quite likely, the trenbolone you were using was something else.

The bottom line is if you got gyno from AAS use, it can be attributed solely to how the compounds you were using affected E-2.

I have had gyno couple of times from running nandrolone and trenbolone and also milky nipples but never with just Testosterone.. I was able to reverse it using Letrozole.

Interesting statement here. If your gyno was caused by prolactin as you seem to saying, don't you find it ironic that Letrozole, an AI, "reversed it?"

 

[Jasthace]

Lactation describes the secretion of milk from the mammary glands...
Galactopoiesis is the maintenance of milk production. This stage requires prolactin (PRL) and oxytocin.
Galactorrhea is milk production unrelated to nursing, it can occur in males and females of many mammal species as result of hormonal imbalances or unusual physiological stimuli.
Estrogen stimulates the milk duct system to grow and differentiate. Like progesterone, high levels of estrogen also inhibit lactation. Estrogen levels also drop at delivery and remain low for the first several months of breastfeeding.[SUP][3][/SUP] Breastfeeding mothers should avoid estrogen-based birth control methods, as a spike in estrogen levels may reduce a mother's milk supply.

Prolactin contributes to the increased growth and differentiation of the alveoli, and also influences differentiation of ductal structures. High levels of prolactin during pregnancy and breastfeeding also increase insulin resistance, increase growth factor levels (IGF-1) and modify lipid metabolism in preparation for breastfeeding. During lactation, prolactin is the main factor maintaining tight junctions of the ductal epithelium and regulating milk production through osmotic balance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactation

CBS please don't post a link and tell me to go off and read it .. as a discussion board , its best you bring the relevant information forward for discussion.

A recurring annoyance is that forum members are often telling other members to go off and read studies and this that and the other when the board is created in view on discussion. You wont catch me sifting hour after hour though pubmed studies , Ill leave that for those that are that way inclined.

 

[dr jim]

Sorry Jim. But you responded to my comment more like a hurt little school girl than a true medical professional, which is why I had to ask whether your feelings were hurt.

By the way, despite the length and wordiness of your reply, you failed to answer the only question I had imposed. Try listening more and attacking less. Or better yet release some of that frustration in the gym. There are plenty of people here who could teach you how to lift if you need to learn.

It seems I'm confronting that old dog and new trick colloquialism in real time, but as you wish!

 

[ketsugo]

Hmm ok I'll bite. Let's say a guy is taking 750 mg of testosterone weekly for 2 months. Then he adds deca. Few weeks after he adds deca he has deca dick and lactating tits. What has changed? If nor 19 aas like npp, tren, deca do not induce prolactin as u insist then when would merely adding the nor 19 create the sides? Why would these same sides go away with the introduction of caber? I know several ppl that had this happen and were using an AI and the issues didn't go away until they used caber.

Fwiw I just keep my estro in check and don't personally use caber with nor19 aas. I've never had a libido or lactation issues when doing this. However I have also run 750mg of test with no AI and didn't get gyno.....surely my e2 was off the charts I was just painting the picture I'm not gyno prone.

My 2 cents is everyone is different . Myself I'm 48 20 plus cycles - always always use deca never once had issues. Or tren caber to me is useless . But then again we all train live and have slightly different make up. I guess we all need to try and see what works - great thread all!!!!