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Gyno or Lower Chest Fat

Jasthace

Jasthace

MuscleHead
May 29, 2011
581
89
http://www.theironden.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6154&d=1403143297
jim

This study suggests that TS males treaded with Estrogen had a wide variation between individuals in relation
and effect to PRL ..

It also concludes that the the prolactin levels fell off on average ..{during the estrogen treatment}

i.e "We here report on PRL levels in 142 male-to-female transsexuals, treated with 100
mg cyproterone acetate and 100 micrograms ethinyloestradiol per day for 6-108 months (median 52).
PRL levels varied markedly between individuals. No relation with age and length of treatment period
was found. In 42 subjects in whom PRL levels were followed serially, a slight fall was measured after
12-15 months of treatment."

also its using two completely different compounds , i.e Cyproterone (INN) is a steroidal antiandrogen which was never marketed and
ethinyloestradiol


Dr Jim ? Its seemed like you are creating a diversionary debate based on completely irrelevant information.

I just want to cap on a couple of points . I pointed out early and Im not going to include the links again because I posted them early as well

* Prolactin secretion is regulated by the hypothalamus via the endocrine neurons that monitor all endocrine activity
in the body as a whole....

*
there are a plethora of anecdotal reports of anabolic steroid using individuals who have used particular compounds
and reported much higher than normal Prolactin levels
. Many individuals have even provided their blood test results
as anecdotal evidence to attest to this.
However, there has been wild variation in the trends concerning the Prolactin
issue with anabolic steroids, and much of this is due to the fact that there
unfortunately does not exist as much
research on many anabolic steroids as we would like, and so there is no solid clinical data from which we can draw
conclusions (e.g. the direct relation of a Progestin such as Trenbolone or Deca-Durabolin (Nandrolone) on Prolactin
levels).
Until the day that studies on such hypotheses are directly conducted, we will have to work with the data
that science has currently provided.




 
Last edited:
dr jim

dr jim

MuscleHead
Apr 7, 2014
785
168
This study suggests that TS males treaded with Estrogen had a wide variation between individuals in relation
and effect to PRL ..

It also concludes that the the prolactin levels fell off on average ..

i.e "We here report on PRL levels in 142 male-to-female transsexuals, treated with 100
mg cyproterone acetate and 100 micrograms ethinyloestradiol per day for 6-108 months (median 52).
PRL levels varied markedly between individuals. No relation with age and length of treatment period
was found. In 42 subjects in whom PRL levels were followed serially, a slight fall was measured after
12-15 months of treatment."

also its using two completely different compounds , i.e Cyproterone (INN) is a steroidal antiandrogen which was never marketed and
ethinyloestradiol


Dr Jim ? Its seemed like you are creating a diversionary debate based on completely irrelevant information.

I just want to cap on a couple of points . I pointed out early and Im not going to include the links again because I posted them early as well

* Prolactin secretion is regulated by the hypothalamus via the endocrine neurons that monitor all endocrine activity
in the body as a whole....

*
there are a plethora of anecdotal reports of anabolic steroid using individuals who have used particular compounds
and reported much higher than normal Prolactin levels
. Many individuals have even provided their blood test results
as anecdotal evidence to attest to this.
However, there has been wild variation in the trends concerning the Prolactin
issue with anabolic steroids, and much of this is due to the fact that there
unfortunately does not exist as much
research on many anabolic steroids as we would like, and so there is no solid clinical data from which we can draw
conclusions (e.g. the direct relation of a Progestin such as Trenbolone or Deca-Durabolin (Nandrolone) on Prolactin
levels).
Until the day that studies on such hypotheses are directly conducted, we will have to work with the data
that science has currently provided.





Really MANY mates have provided evidence of pre-AAS, intra-cycle AAS and post-cycle PROLACTIN levels supporting the assertion 19-Nor anabolics are causative, NIME.

Because sorry fella but each and every time I investigate these "reports" they morph into conjecture, he said, she said, or "I can feel" my prolactin is high nonsense.

Have YOU seen this "evidence", was it reproduced, how 'high" was that level. The latter is important because clinical signs or symptoms are rarely causative unless it exceeds roughly 400-500 mIU/L

If you can locate such a source please forward it my way I'd love to review it in a critical fashion.

best
jim
 
dr jim

dr jim

MuscleHead
Apr 7, 2014
785
168
This study suggests that TS males treaded with Estrogen had a wide variation between individuals in relation
and effect to PRL ..

It also concludes that the the prolactin levels fell off on average ..{during the estrogen treatment}

i.e "We here report on PRL levels in 142 male-to-female transsexuals, treated with 100
mg cyproterone acetate and 100 micrograms ethinyloestradiol per day for 6-108 months (median 52).
PRL levels varied markedly between individuals. No relation with age and length of treatment period
was found. In 42 subjects in whom PRL levels were followed serially, a slight fall was measured after
12-15 months of treatment."

also its using two completely different compounds , i.e Cyproterone (INN) is a steroidal antiandrogen which was never marketed and
ethinyloestradiol


Dr Jim ? Its seemed like you are creating a diversionary debate based on completely irrelevant information.

I just want to cap on a couple of points . I pointed out early and Im not going to include the links again because I posted them early as well

* Prolactin secretion is regulated by the hypothalamus via the endocrine neurons that monitor all endocrine activity
in the body as a whole....

*
there are a plethora of anecdotal reports of anabolic steroid using individuals who have used particular compounds
and reported much higher than normal Prolactin levels
. Many individuals have even provided their blood test results
as anecdotal evidence to attest to this.
However, there has been wild variation in the trends concerning the Prolactin
issue with anabolic steroids, and much of this is due to the fact that there
unfortunately does not exist as much
research on many anabolic steroids as we would like, and so there is no solid clinical data from which we can draw
conclusions (e.g. the direct relation of a Progestin such as Trenbolone or Deca-Durabolin
(Nandrolone) on Prolactin
levels).
Until the day that studies on such hypotheses are directly conducted, we will have to work with the data
that science has currently provided.






The absence of reports on Nandrolone causing an elevated prolactin is telling IMO. I mean my goodness this AAS has been used in the medical field for close to FFTY YEARS yet no reports exist regarding it's propensity to elevate PROLACTIN?

Oh yea that's right all the "legit reports" are anecdotal and readily located on Blogs, AAS forums, PED boards etc.

Right, now that's not even close to being "evidence based".

Hey J-ace NONE of my comments were or are directed at you personally.

Actually your one of a few whom at least try to be objective when it involves controversial issues of this nature and I really appreciate your approach and efforts to support your view, while maintaining civility in the process..

Best to ya fella
Respects
jim
 
Last edited:
C

CBS

Senior Member
Jan 7, 2014
183
59
Say what you want, I'm reading a shit ton of info. Good stuff gents carry on !


Next up, tackling the myth of estrogen rebound following the discontinuation of AI's and following that, the myth of hCG desensitization. Brace yourself, things could get bumpy! ;)
 
P

prime

TID Board Of Directors
Dec 31, 2011
1,178
254
As I say I have never had Gyno from using Testosterone in very high doses .. only when I use a progestin such as Tren and Deca or Anadrol ,do I get a slight lactation,if I squeeze the nipples and also a hard lump under the nipple .. tis all Im saying.

I don't care for your paper work and basic blood tests.

You can get hard lumps from just testosterone. I had gyno when I went thru puberty. Hard buttons under each nipple. Doesn't require tren for lumps. My lumps disappeared after a few years.
 
dr jim

dr jim

MuscleHead
Apr 7, 2014
785
168
A diversionary tactic or debate hardly J-Ace.

You have apparently overlooked the relevance of the study posted with regard to the subject at hand.

My point is relatively straightforward, based on TRANSEXUAL (MALE to FEMALE) literature the ability to achieve lactation is ONLY possible with an TT:E-2 reversal. Which means the E-2 must approximate normal female post-partum levels! (After E-2 has primed those ducts for 1-2 years, followed by it's rapid decline)

Now you tell me Ace do you honestly believe ANY cyclist is doing that (has E-2 levels > TT )? NO WAY because their anabolic efforts are in the toilet. Regardless that is the level of E-2 which is REQUIRED to induce Pituitary prolactin secretion.

One more closing point on this topic should also be mentioned.

Although dopamine agonists are used as adjunctive therapy, to somatostatin antagonists such as Octretide, for "Giantism" (caused by hyper-secreting GH pituitary tumors) why any BB would elect to use a drug which has NO PROVEN benefit but which UNEQUIVOCALLY lowers GH/IGF levels is beyond reason!

For this reason alone I would implore all mates to read the contemporary scientific literature and avoid the persuasive efforts of the few whom believe "experience" is enough. IT IS NOT!

Respects
Jim

This study suggests that TS males treaded with Estrogen had a wide variation between individuals in relation
and effect to PRL ..

It also concludes that the the prolactin levels fell off on average ..{during the estrogen treatment}

i.e "We here report on PRL levels in 142 male-to-female transsexuals, treated with 100
mg cyproterone acetate and 100 micrograms ethinyloestradiol per day for 6-108 months (median 52).
PRL levels varied markedly between individuals. No relation with age and length of treatment period
was found. In 42 subjects in whom PRL levels were followed serially, a slight fall was measured after
12-15 months of treatment."

also its using two completely different compounds , i.e Cyproterone (INN) is a steroidal antiandrogen which was never marketed and
ethinyloestradiol


Dr Jim ? Its seemed like you are creating a diversionary debate based on completely irrelevant information.

I just want to cap on a couple of points . I pointed out early and Im not going to include the links again because I posted them early as well

* Prolactin secretion is regulated by the hypothalamus via the endocrine neurons that monitor all endocrine activity
in the body as a whole....

*
there are a plethora of anecdotal reports of anabolic steroid using individuals who have used particular compounds
and reported much higher than normal Prolactin levels
. Many individuals have even provided their blood test results
as anecdotal evidence to attest to this.
However, there has been wild variation in the trends concerning the Prolactin
issue with anabolic steroids, and much of this is due to the fact that there
unfortunately does not exist as much
research on many anabolic steroids as we would like, and so there is no solid clinical data from which we can draw
conclusions (e.g. the direct relation of a Progestin such as Trenbolone or Deca-Durabolin (Nandrolone) on Prolactin
levels).
Until the day that studies on such hypotheses are directly conducted, we will have to work with the data
that science has currently provided.




 
Last edited:
dallas

dallas

Senior Member
May 23, 2014
124
24
That's why I had little wine gums under my nipples between 13 and 15. Cool, never knew that :^) . Thanks
 
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