Are you worried about elevated Hemoglobin and Hematocrit due to Testosterone usage?

[crowman]

The "false positive" you refer to is a false positive for PCV. Meaning it can look like you have a rare disease where too many RBC's are produced because of a bone marrow problem. TRT however does NOT create a false positive for an elevated Hgb and Hct. Those numbers are real. And unlike PCV the cause is known. Test is a known red bone marrow agonist, meaning it stimulates erythrocytosis, or makes it more efficient however you want to look at it. And as for the term "thick blood" or "thin blood" doesn't really mean anything in real medical terms. But if there was a direct translation, an elevated Hct would be the definition of "thick blood."

What I really want to know is what is your agenda with this? To convince people not to take the safest rout possible and donate blood to keep their H&H in the normal range? How does that benefit you or any of the people who may be unfortunate enough to actually take your advice? It's not like donating blood is damaging to health, it benefits others, it benefits the donor in this case and anyone who is being followed by a doctor can determine through routine blood tests how often and how much they need to donate to keep their numbers in a safe range.

I can tell you from personal experience having gone the first year and a halt to two years of TRT without donating blood and now donating regularly I feel a huge difference. The first time I drained a liter and infused a liter of saline to replace it I felt a difference before I was done.

And as far as the Hgb of a Sherpa? Please, does anybody reading this live their life 30,000 feet above sea level? What the hell does a sherpa's compensatory mechanisms from living at extremely high altitudes have to do with someone living is Arizona or Nevada where they are likely to become dehydrated in addition to having a high H&H and thus put them at even greater risk for Thrombo/embolic event.

Just get regular blood tests people, and if you need to donate blood to get back to the normal range then do it.

Why are you taking such offense to a Q&A? As stated im providing info I paid to learn in a licensed and very accredited manor. If it was BS would doctors be able to count it as CME via the medical board?
I have no agenda. I ref people to clinics other than mine all the time. me telling them that the info out is incorrect? I guess thats an agenda to educate based off scientific fact.
Regarding your personal experience that just proves your lack of education in this field. "The first time I drained a liter and infused a liter of saline to replace it I felt a difference before I was done." It was not the drained liter of blood that made you feel better. It was the $1.50 bag of saline. Have you ever gone to the hospital for extreme food poisoning? I have and as soon as they start fluids you start to feel better. Same thing with a hangover. IV yourself and youll feel better within minutes. It was not your blood you drained. Do you feel better after a blood nose? that's a blood donation be it choice or not.
Regarding a Sherpa, they dont live at 30k feet. Anything above 5k feet will elevate Hemoglobin. The doctor that taught this course works at a ski lodge in the winters in CA for fun. Hes on testosterone therapy and his average Hemaglobin is 24. Surely he has no idea what hes talking about though.
Why is someone in AZ anymore dehydrated than someone in MI? We all have fresh water and AC. You sweat more during a workout ( if you do it right) then you will all day working in an AZ office. im not sure i understand your point with that comment.

 

[TheClap]

Why are you taking such offense to a Q&A? As stated im providing info I paid to learn in a licensed and very accredited manor. If it was BS would doctors be able to count it as CME via the medical board?
I have no agenda. I ref people to clinics other than mine all the time. me telling them that the info out is incorrect? I guess thats an agenda to educate based off scientific fact.
Regarding your personal experience that just proves your lack of education in this field. "The first time I drained a liter and infused a liter of saline to replace it I felt a difference before I was done." It was not the drained liter of blood that made you feel better. It was the $1.50 bag of saline. Have you ever gone to the hospital for extreme food poisoning? I have and as soon as they start fluids you start to feel better. Same thing with a hangover. IV yourself and youll feel better within minutes. It was not your blood you drained. Do you feel better after a blood nose? that's a blood donation be it choice or not.
Regarding a Sherpa, they dont live at 30k feet. Anything above 5k feet will elevate Hemoglobin. The doctor that taught this course works at a ski lodge in the winters in CA for fun. Hes on testosterone therapy and his average Hemaglobin is 24. Surely he has no idea what hes talking about though.
Why is someone in AZ anymore dehydrated than someone in MI? We all have fresh water and AC. You sweat more during a workout ( if you do it right) then you will all day working in an AZ office. im not sure i understand your point with that comment.

Scientific fact... that you haven't been able to cite any real peer reviewed studies to support. Okay buddy. And so now you've resorted to name calling. Sorry for my "lack of education" but I know results based on a one test subject with no control group don't present scientific fact (if scientific fact actually existed). Just sharing my experience. And I could feel a difference before the blood was drained, well before the saline.

Not taking offense. Just hoping people don't listen to someone telling them to not listen to their doctor's advice. Giving blood won't hurt them, and a hematocrit of 60% will, so why the crusade to have people not donate blood?

 

[crowman]

Scientific fact... that you haven't been able to cite any real peer reviewed studies to support. Okay buddy. And so now you've resorted to name calling. Sorry for my "lack of education" but I know results based on a one test subject with no control group don't present scientific fact (if scientific fact actually existed). Just sharing my experience. And I could feel a difference before the blood was drained, well before the saline.

Not taking offense. Just hoping people don't listen to someone telling them to not listen to their doctor's advice. Giving blood won't hurt them, and a hematocrit of 60% will, so why the crusade to have people not donate blood?

Thats not name calling. Thats a statement. Similar to the statement you made that i have an agenda of some sort. A high HGB/HMC with elevated platlets and White blood cells is when you worry and also when you donate. Otherwise donate away but you dont have to.
So you can sleep better at night I have also called the office to obtain a copy of the letter sent out to all patients physicians explaining the increase in HGB/HMC due to testosterone but not to be alarmed as it is normal, beneficial, and not dangerous unless the other labs i have mentioned over and over show an elevation. As soon as they call me back I will retrieve a copy and attach it for your viewing.

 

[crowman]

The only reason im manually typing this out is so people have the right info. I could careless what the Clap wants to think my intentions are or what he thinks he knows. This information comes from an Expert who has been practicing for over 20 years.
Per Dr. Rouzier

Your Physician is confusing your Erythrocytosis with a red blood cell disorder called Polycethmia Vera (PCV). This is a harmful blood condition that causes an increase in clotting which leads to strokes and blood clots. The difference is Erythrocytosis only causes increased red blood cells and no harm. PCV causes an increase in Platelets which causes increased clotting. More importantly PCV is associated with a defect in the blood vessel wall which stimulates the clotting cascade of thrombosis in addition to increased platelets. These two entities together cause an increased risk of blood clots and stroke thereby requiring treatment by phlebotomy or blood donation to lower blood counts and prevent the complications of PCV.
PCV is classically defined as an increase in red blood cells, while blood cells, platelets, splenomegaly, and clotting disorders. You do not have this nor are you at risk for this. In addition the literature clearly demonstrates that testosterone causes erythrocytosis only and not PCV. Testosterone administration has never been associated with any risk of clotting or stroke in any of the studies over the last 40 years. Therefore the erythrcytosis requires no treatment. You have the same erythrocytosis that people have who live at high altitude and you should receive the same treatment as they do, which is nothing. If your Physician is uncomfortable with this then he can refer you to a hematologist who will hopefully understand this very well. If your physician or you are still concerned, then the treatment is simply to donate blood which is the only necessary treatment for PCV, which you do not have.

Citation: http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMra022251
Excerpt since you have to buy the study from NEJM and if I make a copy no one will be able to read it: It is reassuring that as far as we can determine, no Testosterone-associated thromboembolic events have been reported to date! NEJM Meta-analysis.

 

[MorganKane]

I will never be able to find you a study that says exactly everything im sharing all in one write up. I can simply show you studies that show the things we are talking about being helped through trt. for example TRT lowers cardiovascular disease but they are proving that point not that it does not cause prostate cancer. i can find you studies where TRT is beneficial for those who have had prostate cancer but it will probably still warn to watch hemo/hema etc. Do you get what im saying here?
Regarding the prostate thing, I thought it was brought up in one of the questions.
The side effects of estrogen are not really bad. where did you get that? we all have estrogen. if it was bad we would have are ovaries (women) removed at an early age, and men would all be put on an AI.
We are going in too many different directions here. keep the estrogen to the estro thread i started please to help not confuse.
Do you want first and foremost the info on hemo/hema? I have provided info on that. Do you want a doctor to come out and say it in writing? I dont know if im going to be able to apese all your misconceptions (no disrespect).
regarding the no long term studies, that one did say that. then i found a long term study to prove that wrong.
Like i said I want to share all the info i have. The only problem is i have over 600 pages of studies and bloods but no table of contents so i literally flip through each one page by page, find the foot notes, google it, then paste if for you to review. Each one is on a dif topic so yes each one will prove one point but may also say monitor these other things to cover their ass.
A patient who has had cancer or prostate cancer can be treated safely and effectively via BHRT. A patient who has cancer currently will be pulled off hormones in most cases ( not all) until the cancer is treated. Hormones do not cause cancer though. Does that make sense?

You make no sense and you have nothing to backup your claims.
Now you went on a rant about TRT.
I suggest you read the title of the thread and your original post.

 

[crowman]

You make no sense and you have nothing to backup your claims.
Now you went on a rant about TRT.
I suggest you read the title of the thread and your original post.

"Are you worried about elevated Hemoglobin and Hematocrit due to testosterone usage?? That is the title. I then provided studies and medical professionals insights on them. Your asking me to find you one study that says testosterone will not cause prostate cancer, elevate hemoglobin, and 50 other things. This thread got off topic so i can either ignore everything you say from now on or I can answer the questions with individual studies. No one study answers everything. How does that not make sense to you??
What doesnt make sense to you and what doesnt back up my claims? I think you are the one who is confused.
This entire thing is about TRT. This is a TRT forum. This is a TRT related thread. Maybe you need to go back and read what forum your in.

 

[graniteman]

"Are you worried about elevated Hemoglobin and Hematocrit due to testosterone usage?? That is the title. I then provided studies and medical professionals insights on them. Your asking me to find you one study that says testosterone will not cause prostate cancer, elevate hemoglobin, and 50 other things. This thread got off topic so i can either ignore everything you say from now on or I can answer the questions with individual studies. No one study answers everything. How does that not make sense to you??
What doesnt make sense to you and what doesnt back up my claims? I think you are the one who is confused.
This entire thing is about TRT. This is a TRT forum. This is a TRT related thread. Maybe you need to go back and read what forum your in.

Mayo clinic has many studies on trt benefits and disspelling myths. I checked it out pretty thoroughly(prostate cancer) before starting. When Mayo clinic states there is no evidence test causes p-cancer I tend to believe them..
BUT , I am really interested in the estrogen statement you alluded to.

ps, I had high hemacrit and was told by My Doc AND Red Cross every 3 months only

 

[crowman]

Mayo clinic has many studies on trt benefits and disspelling myths. I checked it out pretty thoroughly(prostate cancer) before starting. When Mayo clinic states there is no evidence test causes p-cancer I tend to believe them..
BUT , I am really interested in the estrogen statement you alluded to.

ps, I had high hemacrit and was told by My Doc AND Red Cross every 3 months only

Which estrogen question please (we have mentioned many things about it)? I will get to work on it in the estrogen thread.

 

[graniteman]

Which estrogen question please (we have mentioned many things about it)? I will get to work on it in the estrogen thread.

Sheeeit! Now I cant find it but you had wrote ''hold on, what you're going to hear about estrogen will change...'' It may be in the other thread?

 

[crowman]

Sheeeit! Now I cant find it but you had wrote ''hold on, what you're going to hear about estrogen will change...'' It may be in the other thread?

Hahah ok thats easy. Im actually going to do the write up on the plane assuming im not stuck between to fat guys on the plane.

 

[MorganKane]

"Are you worried about elevated Hemoglobin and Hematocrit due to testosterone usage?? That is the title. I then provided studies and medical professionals insights on them. Your asking me to find you one study that says testosterone will not cause prostate cancer, elevate hemoglobin, and 50 other things. This thread got off topic so i can either ignore everything you say from now on or I can answer the questions with individual studies. No one study answers everything. How does that not make sense to you??
What doesnt make sense to you and what doesnt back up my claims? I think you are the one who is confused.
This entire thing is about TRT. This is a TRT forum. This is a TRT related thread. Maybe you need to go back and read what forum your in.

You provided some studies that does not say anything about H&H but you want me to take your word for it.
Providing more studies that does not discuss H&H makes no sense either by the way so get on point.

Sure this is a TRT forum but when you bring in specific topics you should stay on that topic and not hide behind some excuse its a TRT forum.
This was NOT a discussion about TRT being bad or good, again read your own title. I am actually still on that topic but it seems that you want to derail it.

You make big claims, dispute thousands of doctors, only medical training you have is a few CMEs and you make no cites or any proof that you are right.

Dont worry about responding, I will stick to my hemotology doctor, the rest of the medical establishment and my own personal experience.

good luck with your CME's and your clinic.

 

[graniteman]

I'm not going to get into who's right or wrong and the pissing match BUT..I will say some of the statements in here are contrary to the consensus of most. I my self would rather have a Doc that specializes in HRT treat me over a GP or Endo. HRT, testosterone treatments, sides and benefits are evolving. Major clinical studies by Mayo clinic and others still do not conclusively rule out or point to test causing prostrate cancer and other ailments. Actually some point to the contrary. They do point to many benefits, heart health, bone health, etc.
If crowman is attending cutting edge clinics and seminars why would you not hear him out 1st, then question? You guys are starting to remind me of the guys who wanted to string up Magellan!! Again , I am on hrt and would take a hrt clinic\doc who SPECIALIZES in this field over your GP or your Endo who are stuck in archaic views of testosterone supplementation (THIS IS NOT DISCUSSING BB DOSAGES OR OTHER AAS USE)