Are you worried about elevated Hemoglobin and Hematocrit due to Testosterone usage?

[crowman]

yes ive heard and actually saw a movie explaining the pot and monkey thing, anything to pass their own agenda is usually how docs get more money and crap like that, so i guess i just read it wrong, but u are saying this:

Well it DOESN'T! Thats right Testosterone ( im not referring to other drugs simply TRT since that is what we are talking about) does not raise bloods thickness or consistency.

so test may not directly cause blood to thicken, i agree, BUT is it indirectly causing it because of these 2 items:??

testosterone causes Erythocytosis which is an increase in Red blood cells" actually leads to what u are saying:



Polycythemia vera also may result in production of too many of the other types of blood cells — white blood cells and platelets. But it's the excess red blood cells that thicken your blood and cause most of the concerns associated with polycythemia vera.


this is what id like to know because it sounds like the extra red blood cells the test is making or causing ur body to make is indirectly causing polycythemia, as read above ^^?

am i off on this?? i have to ask because it sounds like the extra red cells are causing the effects of the ploy, which in turn says extra thick blood...

To answer your question as simple as possible and for everyone else. NO. We could do a bone marrow tap if youd like (me, no thanks) to make sure you dont have that but PCV is not caused by testosterone. Think about when were kids. Do our DR's monitor our HGB regularly in the worry our body is putting out too much testosterone and it will convert over to PCV or increase either of the two? FYI PCV is also very rare Bone marrow disease so why are our doctors so worried about a very rare bone marrow disease in mainly men on testosterone. Things that make you take a step back and go hmmmm...
What I learned is one does not cause the other or vise versa. Just because one test shows the results of another, its not the same thing. The simplest way to know, keep and eye on high platelet count. If you see that, then you for further testing. Otherwise, leave it alone unless you want your brother to have better workouts then you

 

[J2048b]

To answer your question as simple as possible and for everyone else. NO. We could do a bone marrow tap if youd like (me, no thanks) to make sure you dont have that but PCV is not caused by testosterone. Think about when were kids. Do our DR's monitor our HGB regularly in the worry our body is putting out too much testosterone and it will convert over to PCV or increase either of the two? FYI PCV is also very rare Bone marrow disease so why are our doctors so worried about a very rare bone marrow disease in mainly men on testosterone. Things that make you take a step back and go hmmmm...
What I learned is one does not cause the other or vise versa. Just because one test shows the results of another, its not the same thing. The simplest way to know, keep and eye on high platelet count. If you see that, then you for further testing. Otherwise, leave it alone unless you want your brother to have better workouts then you

Ok nice thanks crow! Ill have bw done soon and ill check on that platelet and see how it looks!

 

[MorganKane]

No im not a doctor. I own HRT clinics and attend CME ( continuing medical education) training even though i hold no doctors license simply to learn.

Let me get this straight: Your doctors want you to have numbers below normal? Why below normal? They want your body to have less Oxygen than an average body should have? Does this sound safe, healthy, or even remotely sane? ( I dont mean that disrespectfully to you)

Next Question. Why is high estrogen a problem (unless you have gyno)? i want your answer or the answer they have told you before I go further please. your going to freak.

so your donating a pint every other week? Do you know that it is supposed to be done no more than one time every 3 months or else you can suffer (unless you have an extremely rare condition i dont know of) Anemia or a Iron deficiency. That is a very serious condition. Also, your thinning your blood further with the Aspirin.

Let me ask you a serious question. Overall, how do you feel?

Did not mean below normal, I meant below high end of normal. Basically in the normal range.

I can't make much sense out of your claims. I will stick to my docs.
You are contracting pretty much all known research as far as I know.
Please post some cites to your claims.

I think my doc know what he does. Your claim about donating every 3 months is right unless you have high levels. Then it will be MUCH more frequent.

I feel good if I keep track of this. Its not really a big deal for me.
When it goes high I just donate until its down below normal.
Once every week according to blood work and how I feel.
Normally it seems to be once every two weeks. I get my levels below and leave it alone until its high again.
Yes, I am using an aspirin.

by the way, after blood donation I am still using the same amount of test for TRT.
Blood work shows normal. How can test then cause false positive and be correct at the same time.
Also, why has labcor or any other lab posted a warning about this? How do you know this is correct.
Do you have any cites for this? Something with peer review please.

 

[MorganKane]

So you are saying when you stop test your hemoglobin and hematocrit drop? Precisely, the amount of oxygen in your blood drops. Test causes an increase in blood so take it away and there goes your oxygen and there goes your elevated numbers

Elevation, hydration, smoking, and a few other things play a role in Hemoglobin and hematocrit numbers.

You stated the problem word for word "everywhere u do research it says the opposites". Who put those tests on? I can show you the new england journal of medicine stating to date no testosterone has ever been linked to blood thickening.

From the NEJM 350.(5):482-492 ‘It is reassuring that as far as we can determine no testosterone-associated Thromboembolic events have been reported to date”. NEJM 2004

If you go looking for an answer your going to find it. Its so hard for the average person to decipher these studies since they are so skewed by whomever put them on.

Have you ever heard of the "Womens Health initiative"? It was the studies that show Estrogen in women causes cancer. If you only knew how that study was performed. I will get to that later. Here is another prime example of who put the study on and what was there initiative?

marijuana kills brain cells- abbreviated version- they pumped over 500 joints through a gas mask on a monkey in less than 5 minutes. Anyone knows with that much smoke there is no oxygen. guess what dies when you dont have oxygen? Brain cells. I.E. Marijuana kills brain cells.

I dont have access to the full report but this is what it say.
Although some reports suggest that testosterone-replacement therapy may provide benefits for aging men, considerable controversy remains regarding indications for its use. Neither large-scale nor long-term studies have been initiated, in part because of theoretical concern regarding the risks associated with testosterone therapy, especially the possible stimulation of prostate cancer.

So no long term or large scale study but you are certain it does not have any risk with trt?

Here is a question.
Why should we take your word for this. You are not a doctor, you have no medical training besides CMEs.
There are literary thousands of doctors saying your are wrong.

Dont take anything I write as a put down. I am just asking simple questions.
When you make HUGE claims you need solid evidence to back it up.

And by the way, I am only reporting my personal experience and what I have learned.
I am open to be totally wrong

 

[crowman]

I dont have access to the full report but this is what it say.
Although some reports suggest that testosterone-replacement therapy may provide benefits for aging men, considerable controversy remains regarding indications for its use. Neither large-scale nor long-term studies have been initiated, in part because of theoretical concern regarding the risks associated with testosterone therapy, especially the possible stimulation of prostate cancer.

So no long term or large scale study but you are certain it does not have any risk with trt?

Here is a question.
Why should we take your word for this. You are not a doctor, you have no medical training besides CMEs.
There are literary thousands of doctors saying your are wrong.

Dont take anything I write as a put down. I am just asking simple questions.
When you make HUGE claims you need solid evidence to back it up.

And by the way, I am only reporting my personal experience and what I have learned.
I am open to be totally wrong

i can tell this could be come a very time consuming topic for me lol. Please allow me to compile the info for you. Yes, i do have studies, blood works, etc etc to back this all up. Keep in mind, most doctors think TRT is not necessary if you are in the range 250-1100 so are you sure they are the best choice to listen to? Docs say all the time oh your a 350 your in the range your good. The real question is how do you feel? Please dont answer this im just making a statement. Allow me to compile info for you. If i have to scan them in i can not post them on this forum, it does not let me post attachments so i will have to have a mod. let me see if i can start on all this before leaving town for the next week. I enjoy these discussions. Also please realize everyone IM NOT A DOCTOR. IM SIMPLY PASSING ALONG THE FACTS I WAS PRESENTED IN MY TRAINING BY AN EXPERT WHO HAS BEEN IN THE BUSINESS FOR OVER 20 YEARS. If you are seriosuly intested and dont want to take my word for it take a weekend class. in my opinion its the best money i have ever invested in my schooling.

 

[crowman]

Did not mean below normal, I meant below high end of normal. Basically in the normal range. so your donating when its in the normal range? Why? its normal? Even if you dont believe me about it being oxygen increasing red blood cells your still within the normal range.

I can't make much sense out of your claims. I will stick to my docs. No problem im not trying to sway anyone only present info
You are contracting pretty much all known research as far as I know. Yes- remember when 20 years ago testosterone caused cancer and heart disase? now its proven Low T increases your risk of heart disease. The research has changed and the facts prove it
Please post some cites to your claims.

I think my doc know what he does. Your claim about donating every 3 months is right unless you have high levels. Then it will be MUCH more frequent.

I feel good if I keep track of this. Its not really a big deal for me.
When it goes high I just donate until its down below normal. Does it make you feel any different good or bad? That is a personal question from me.
Once every week according to blood work and how I feel.
Normally it seems to be once every two weeks. I get my levels below and leave it alone until its high again.
Yes, I am using an aspirin. Do you know the amount of people aspirin kills per year? Alot more than elevated red blood cell counts. Just some food for thought.

by the way, after blood donation I am still using the same amount of test for TRT.
Blood work shows normal. How can test then cause false positive and be correct at the same time. I dont understand what you mean here. Are you saying after you donate it goes to normal? Then goes back up over time? That because you just pulled out oxygenated blood. It will go back up over time as always.
Also, why has labcorp or any other lab posted a warning about this? How do you know this is correct. HA when has labcorp cared anything about your health? One they are not there to analyze your blood. only draw it and give it to your physicians. 2- they are not educated in hormone therapy. 3- Its not there job to explain any abnormalities in blood. They also dont know what meds your on when you go in for a draw. they simply do what your doctor says for lab test.
Do you have any cites for this? Something with peer review please.

Ok I think i answered all your questions let me work on studies and citations for you. i can see myself getting confused trying to find all the studies and citations so if i forget something its not on purpose and i will do my best to provide as much as possible.

 

[crowman]

I dont have access to the full report but this is what it say.
Although some reports suggest that testosterone-replacement therapy may provide benefits for aging men, considerable controversy remains regarding indications for its use. Neither large-scale nor long-term studies have been initiated, in part because of theoretical concern regarding the risks associated with testosterone therapy, especially the possible stimulation of prostate cancer.

So no long term or large scale study but you are certain it does not have any risk with trt?

Here is a question.
Why should we take your word for this. You are not a doctor, you have no medical training besides CMEs.
There are literary thousands of doctors saying your are wrong.

Dont take anything I write as a put down. I am just asking simple questions.
When you make HUGE claims you need solid evidence to back it up.

And by the way, I am only reporting my personal experience and what I have learned.
I am open to be totally wrong

I need to narrow this down. do you want me to provide studies proving the safety of Hormone Therapy, its disease fighting effects, and its ability to fight increased mortality rates? if so, i will begin. i literally have so much stuff here its hard for me to narrow down to answer your questions. I can either scan these studies in which may be hard to read or put all the citations which will be time consuming but regardless lets knock out the info.

 

[Warrior45]

I personally, would like to read the studies. I love reading that stuff. If you could scan them or somehow make them available thst would be great.

 

[crowman]

Androgen deficiency in the aging male:
http://www.clinicalgeriatrics.com/a...y-Aging-Male-The-Beginning-Middle-and-Ongoing
sub notes: low T contribute to several comorbid conditions (myocardial infraction, coronary atherosclerosis, type 2 diabetes, obesity, osteoperosis, hypertenstion)
"Minimal or no effect on PSA levels occur as a result of testosterone administration. Prostate size is negligibly affected. Those patients diagnosed with prostate cancer have a worsened outcome.2 At present, there are no data to confirm that testosterone therapy causes microadenomatous prostate cancer. - See more at: http://www.clinicalgeriatrics.com/articles/Androgen-Deficiency-Aging-Male-The-Beginning-Middle-and-Ongoing#sthash.VHJNvBKj.dpuf"

#2 Low Testosterone levels increased mortality rates in male veterans
http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=410768

20 year study shows low T in men increased the risk of death. Is this a long term study to you?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17911176

Test related to mortality due to cardiovascular disease
http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/116/23/2694.long

Ok I can go on and on and on but I dont have the time. Hopefully this strikes you as odd when you say no long term studies have been done. " Although some reports suggest that testosterone-replacement therapy may provide benefits for aging men, considerable controversy remains regarding indications for its use. Neither large-scale nor long-term studies have been initiated, in part because of theoretical concern regarding the risks associated with testosterone therapy, especially the possible stimulation of prostate cancer." I will get to the prostate cancer. Just so you know It does not cause cancer. to keep this short for now. Testosterone causes an increase in estrogen. Estrogen is used to fight prostate cancer. 1 in 7 men have prostate cancer and dont know it. so do you think some of these men in the studies that contract prostate cancer could have possibly gone into the study with it already without knowing it? Yes those are some pretty darn good odds.

 

[MorganKane]

Androgen deficiency in the aging male:
http://www.clinicalgeriatrics.com/a...y-Aging-Male-The-Beginning-Middle-and-Ongoing
sub notes: low T contribute to several comorbid conditions (myocardial infraction, coronary atherosclerosis, type 2 diabetes, obesity, osteoperosis, hypertenstion)
"Minimal or no effect on PSA levels occur as a result of testosterone administration. Prostate size is negligibly affected. Those patients diagnosed with prostate cancer have a worsened outcome.2 At present, there are no data to confirm that testosterone therapy causes microadenomatous prostate cancer. - See more at: http://www.clinicalgeriatrics.com/articles/Androgen-Deficiency-Aging-Male-The-Beginning-Middle-and-Ongoing#sthash.VHJNvBKj.dpuf"

#2 Low Testosterone levels increased mortality rates in male veterans
http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=410768

20 year study shows low T in men increased the risk of death. Is this a long term study to you?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17911176

Test related to mortality due to cardiovascular disease
http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/116/23/2694.long

Ok I can go on and on and on but I dont have the time. Hopefully this strikes you as odd when you say no long term studies have been done. " Although some reports suggest that testosterone-replacement therapy may provide benefits for aging men, considerable controversy remains regarding indications for its use. Neither large-scale nor long-term studies have been initiated, in part because of theoretical concern regarding the risks associated with testosterone therapy, especially the possible stimulation of prostate cancer." I will get to the prostate cancer. Just so you know It does not cause cancer. to keep this short for now. Testosterone causes an increase in estrogen. Estrogen is used to fight prostate cancer. 1 in 7 men have prostate cancer and dont know it. so do you think some of these men in the studies that contract prostate cancer could have possibly gone into the study with it already without knowing it? Yes those are some pretty darn good odds.

I said that the first study YOU refereed to said right on the page no long term or large group. I did not say that it did not exist but you refereed to a study with that note.

I dont see the words hemacrit or hemoglobin in the last 3 studies you posted so I am unsure your point here?

But the first one says this:
. These evaluations should be performed periodically, including periodic PSA testing, to monitor androgen therapy and response. Additional laboratory studies performed during ongoing testosterone treatment include hemoglobin, hematocrit, lipid profile, and liver function studies.

That study says to run extra labs to check for it. Is that because hemoglobin and hematocrit does not increase with test and the lab work shows false readings?
You can see why I am still questioning your claims.

I am confused with your prostate cancer issue here.
What does it have to do with your original post?

You are also referring to using estrogen to fight prostate cancer and you are making it sound like estrogen is a good thing.
its seldom used today due to the bad sides.
After first line of drugs fail they use secondary drugs like estrogen. The side effects are really bad like blood clots and heart problems.
By the way, they will have you stop all testosterone injections and might even stop your natural production if are being treated for prostate cancer.

 

[crowman]

I said that the first study YOU refereed to said right on the page no long term or large group. I did not say that it did not exist but you refereed to a study with that note.

I dont see the words hemacrit or hemoglobin in the last 3 studies you posted so I am unsure your point here?

But the first one says this:
. These evaluations should be performed periodically, including periodic PSA testing, to monitor androgen therapy and response. Additional laboratory studies performed during ongoing testosterone treatment include hemoglobin, hematocrit, lipid profile, and liver function studies.

That study says to run extra labs to check for it. Is that because hemoglobin and hematocrit does not increase with test and the lab work shows false readings?
You can see why I am still questioning your claims.

I am confused with your prostate cancer issue here.
What does it have to do with your original post?

You are also referring to using estrogen to fight prostate cancer and you are making it sound like estrogen is a good thing.
its seldom used today due to the bad sides.
After first line of drugs fail they use secondary drugs like estrogen. The side effects are really bad like blood clots and heart problems.
By the way, they will have you stop all testosterone injections and might even stop your natural production if are being treated for prostate cancer.

I will never be able to find you a study that says exactly everything im sharing all in one write up. I can simply show you studies that show the things we are talking about being helped through trt. for example TRT lowers cardiovascular disease but they are proving that point not that it does not cause prostate cancer. i can find you studies where TRT is beneficial for those who have had prostate cancer but it will probably still warn to watch hemo/hema etc. Do you get what im saying here?
Regarding the prostate thing, I thought it was brought up in one of the questions.
The side effects of estrogen are not really bad. where did you get that? we all have estrogen. if it was bad we would have are ovaries (women) removed at an early age, and men would all be put on an AI.
We are going in too many different directions here. keep the estrogen to the estro thread i started please to help not confuse.
Do you want first and foremost the info on hemo/hema? I have provided info on that. Do you want a doctor to come out and say it in writing? I dont know if im going to be able to apese all your misconceptions (no disrespect).
regarding the no long term studies, that one did say that. then i found a long term study to prove that wrong.
Like i said I want to share all the info i have. The only problem is i have over 600 pages of studies and bloods but no table of contents so i literally flip through each one page by page, find the foot notes, google it, then paste if for you to review. Each one is on a dif topic so yes each one will prove one point but may also say monitor these other things to cover their ass.
A patient who has had cancer or prostate cancer can be treated safely and effectively via BHRT. A patient who has cancer currently will be pulled off hormones in most cases ( not all) until the cancer is treated. Hormones do not cause cancer though. Does that make sense?

 

[TheClap]

The "false positive" you refer to is a false positive for PCV. Meaning it can look like you have a rare disease where too many RBC's are produced because of a bone marrow problem. TRT however does NOT create a false positive for an elevated Hgb and Hct. Those numbers are real. And unlike PCV the cause is known. Test is a known red bone marrow agonist, meaning it stimulates erythrocytosis, or makes it more efficient however you want to look at it. And as for the term "thick blood" or "thin blood" doesn't really mean anything in real medical terms. But if there was a direct translation, an elevated Hct would be the definition of "thick blood."

What I really want to know is what is your agenda with this? To convince people not to take the safest rout possible and donate blood to keep their H&H in the normal range? How does that benefit you or any of the people who may be unfortunate enough to actually take your advice? It's not like donating blood is damaging to health, it benefits others, it benefits the donor in this case and anyone who is being followed by a doctor can determine through routine blood tests how often and how much they need to donate to keep their numbers in a safe range.

I can tell you from personal experience having gone the first year and a halt to two years of TRT without donating blood and now donating regularly I feel a huge difference. The first time I drained a liter and infused a liter of saline to replace it I felt a difference before I was done.

And as far as the Hgb of a Sherpa? Please, does anybody reading this live their life 30,000 feet above sea level? What the hell does a sherpa's compensatory mechanisms from living at extremely high altitudes have to do with someone living is Arizona or Nevada where they are likely to become dehydrated in addition to having a high H&H and thus put them at even greater risk for Thrombo/embolic event.

Just get regular blood tests people, and if you need to donate blood to get back to the normal range then do it.