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Are you worried about elevated Hemoglobin and Hematocrit due to Testosterone usage?

J

J2048b

MuscleHead
Jul 2, 2012
286
82
Are you worried about elevated Hemoglobin and Hematocrit due to Testosterone ...

Yup mine is at 55 for hematocrit, but i chew... Drink beer ob the weekends and eat well... So am i gonna die? Please wake up man AND TELL ME PLEASE! Haha i wont die... I need to hydrate and eat less salt and quit chewing after 20 yrs...
 
DF

DF

VIP Member
Jul 7, 2012
352
65
Really the only time I was worried about my crit was when my BP was way up... 140/110's. However, I was going thru a shit ton of stress back then too. My BP is under control now without meds. My levels are fine at a trt dose, but I will donate on cycle.
 
TheClap

TheClap

VIP Member
Oct 25, 2011
547
173
Actually I'll just cut and paste it so we can keep all the discussion right here. This sums up my thoughts and experience on the subject... at least it did at the time I wrote this little article:

It’s seems like not enough time goes by without hearing that a well known member of the boards has died of a heart attack. Anyone who’s been around for a while knows what I’m talking about. There will be some kind of effort to raise money for the guys family. We all tell ourselves it has nothing to do with his use of gear so we can go on feeling like we aren’t doing anything harmful to our bodies.

Well the bad news is it does have something to do with gear use. The neutral news is it’s not just because of the negative effects on blood lipid levels. And the good news is it’s very treatable. The side effect I’m talking about is called Polycythemia – an excess of red blood cells.

Unfortunately almost all androgens increase red blood cell production. Testosterone is a red bone marrow agonist. EQ stimulates EPO production. Deca stimulates RBC in a more direct manner. The list goes on. At first glance this sounds like a great thing. We all hear controversy about blood doping in endurance sports and the ignorant media makes it sound like this condition would be ideal for athletes. The truth is that being polycythemic for a short period of time may yield a slight increase in cardiovascular endurance, but long-standing polycythemia will make you exhausted and damage almost every major organ system in your body. It also greatly increases you risk for pulmonary embolism, heart attack and stroke.

So here’s how the damage occurs. You blood is normally supposed to be about 45% formed elements: RBCs, platelets, WBCs etc. And the rest is water. So you add in a significant increase in RBCs and your blood becomes something like a 55/45 mix instead of 45/55. So your blood becomes thick. This puts extra strain on the heart, having to pump thick blood. Since the blood is thick the blood pressure generally needs to go up so it can force thick blood through your capillary beds. Here’s a news flashforcing thick blood through the tiny vessels of your kidneys is not good for them!!!

Get out a copy of your last post cycle bloodwork. Was your RBC level, hemoglobin and hematocrit all high? If it was, now take a look at your creatinine. Was it about 1.3 – 1.6? Maybe it’s just a lucky guess. Now, I have seen post cycle bloodwork from people who come back without polycythemia. Like everything, a large part of this will be determined by genetics.

On to the other set of problems, ischemic events, meaning stroke, MI, pulmonary embolism, deep vein thrombosis… in other words, problems caused by blood clots. It doesn’t take many brain cells to figure out that thick blood is going to clot more easily. This is one of the reasons that smokers have strokes and heart attacks. A percentage of their blood becomes bound to carbon monoxide, rendering it incapable of carrying oxygen and to compensate their bodies produce more red blood cells (so those of you that smoke and use AAS need to quit AAS until you can quit smoking).

I could go on about this for a while, but I won’t. Many have probably stopped reading already. It’s not too fun to read about something as insignificant as saving your kidneys when you could be researching just how many A-bombs you need to take to get hoooooooge.

Now we’ve described the problem. So what’s the solution? To put it simply, the solution is to get rid of the extra blood cells. Donate blood. In my experience this has significantly decreased my creatinine levels (a high creatinine suggests decreased kidney function) and improved my overall energy levels.

I know that some of you can’t honestly donate blood (maybe you like the whores a little too much). Don’t dismay, there are a couple of options. I myself can’t give blood (I lived in Europe for a number of years during the time of mad-cow disease). First you can go to the blood bank and explain your situation. You don’t have to tell them you use AAS, just that you need to do a therapeutic donation. They will put your information in the system. You then go to your doctor and have them call the blood bank and tell them you need to do a therapeutic donation.

This option didn’t work for me either. My NP wanted me to see a hematologist, even though she knew my polycythemia was caused by TRT. So now I take care of the problem at home. I have a friend start an IV on me, I drain one liter of blood (yes a full liter, and I'm only abt 205lbs) and then replace it with a liter of saline. This keeps my RBC count at the top end of the normal range, improves my energy level and my kidney function.
2h69j4h.jpg


If you use gear. Use it responsibly.
Thanks for reading... or not reading, I don't give a shit.
TC
 
Last edited:
MorganKane

MorganKane

VIP Member
Nov 12, 2012
1,727
1,015
I am really interested in this one.

Crowman, are you a doctor?

I have high H&H, it always creep up.
I have a hematology doc and a pulmonary doc.
Both are concerned about it but dont freak out. They prefer for me to have numbers below normal.
Between them they have over 50 years as docs I think.
My hematology doc asked me if I needed to be on the test and said yes, that was it.
did not ask me to get off. Just told me to keep an eye on it.

I also had a pulmonary embolism so I have dealt with this.
I think high H&H with high estrogen is a bigger problem then the test.

My cardiologist put me on daily baby aspirin. Not sure how many years he has been a doc.

I do phlebotomy regularly. I can't donate blood since I lived in Europe but my wife is a nurse so I do it at home.
Usually, I do 1 pint on a friday. Wait a week and do another one.

Looking forward to your post on this issue.
 
crowman

crowman

MuscleHead
Nov 2, 2011
1,229
204
Sorry for the delay guys. Between now and December im doing a ton of traveling and a ton of training all HRT related courses. Here is the the answer to my question. Get ready. Get ready. are you ready? This is going to hurt. For countless nights I laid awake in bed dreading the next day. Dreading the 16g needle that was going to plunge my vein and draw a pint of blood all because stupid testosterone raided my Hemo/Mema levels.

Well it DOESN'T! Thats right Testosterone ( im not referring to other drugs simply TRT since that is what we are talking about) does not raise bloods thickness or consistency. It causes a false positive reading. Thus Hematologists and dr's alike tell you were killing you, were gonna give you a stroke, and your going to die.
Not 1 test has ever been proven to say (un biased of course) that testosterone is proven to increase blood viscosity. What it does do is this:
Testosterone causes Erythocytosis which is an increase in Red blood cells. Guess what that means? More oxygen in the blood stream so those who are exercising are going to benefit even on a day to day quality of life. It does not increase Blood viscosity but due to the increased red blood cells Hemoglobin and Hematocrit testing will show it as elevated. At this point if you see this on a blood test you are at no risk of it causing a stroke or heart attack and have no need to donate a pint.
Polycytheriavera (PCV) will show an increase on Hemoglobin/Hematocrit but how you tell the difference between the two is you will see an elevated blood platelet count usually near the high range which i believe can be near 1 million off the top of my head and elevated white blood cells. This case you do need to donate as your blood is thick.
Guess what? A Sherpa's average hemoglobin is? 24. Do they donate? No, because there blood is not thicker it simply has more red blood cells and oxygen in it. its the same reason athletes train at a higher elevation.
So to make a long story short testosterone will not increase bloods consistency and Hematologist and primary care Docs are mis diagnosing this condition. You will live to see another day.
 
crowman

crowman

MuscleHead
Nov 2, 2011
1,229
204
I am really interested in this one.

Crowman, are you a doctor?

I have high H&H, it always creep up.
I have a hematology doc and a pulmonary doc.
Both are concerned about it but dont freak out. They prefer for me to have numbers below normal.
Between them they have over 50 years as docs I think.
My hematology doc asked me if I needed to be on the test and said yes, that was it.
did not ask me to get off. Just told me to keep an eye on it.

I also had a pulmonary embolism so I have dealt with this.
I think high H&H with high estrogen is a bigger problem then the test.

My cardiologist put me on daily baby aspirin. Not sure how many years he has been a doc.

I do phlebotomy regularly. I can't donate blood since I lived in Europe but my wife is a nurse so I do it at home.
Usually, I do 1 pint on a friday. Wait a week and do another one.

Looking forward to your post on this issue.

No im not a doctor. I own HRT clinics and attend CME ( continuing medical education) training even though i hold no doctors license simply to learn.

Let me get this straight: Your doctors want you to have numbers below normal? Why below normal? They want your body to have less Oxygen than an average body should have? Does this sound safe, healthy, or even remotely sane? ( I dont mean that disrespectfully to you)

Next Question. Why is high estrogen a problem (unless you have gyno)? i want your answer or the answer they have told you before I go further please. your going to freak.

so your donating a pint every other week? Do you know that it is supposed to be done no more than one time every 3 months or else you can suffer (unless you have an extremely rare condition i dont know of) Anemia or a Iron deficiency. That is a very serious condition. Also, your thinning your blood further with the Aspirin.

Let me ask you a serious question. Overall, how do you feel?
 
J

J2048b

MuscleHead
Jul 2, 2012
286
82
Sorry for the delay guys. Between now and December im doing a ton of traveling and a ton of training all HRT related courses. Here is the the answer to my question. Get ready. Get ready. are you ready? This is going to hurt. For countless nights I laid awake in bed dreading the next day. Dreading the 16g needle that was going to plunge my vein and draw a pint of blood all because stupid testosterone raided my Hemo/Mema levels.

Well it DOESN'T! Thats right Testosterone ( im not referring to other drugs simply TRT since that is what we are talking about) does not raise bloods thickness or consistency. It causes a false positive reading. Thus Hematologists and dr's alike tell you were killing you, were gonna give you a stroke, and your going to die.
Not 1 test has ever been proven to say (un biased of course) that testosterone is proven to increase blood viscosity. What it does do is this:
Testosterone causes Erythocytosis which is an increase in Red blood cells. Guess what that means? More oxygen in the blood stream so those who are exercising are going to benefit even on a day to day quality of life. It does not increase Blood viscosity but due to the increased red blood cells Hemoglobin and Hematocrit testing will show it as elevated. At this point if you see this on a blood test you are at no risk of it causing a stroke or heart attack and have no need to donate a pint.
Polycytheriavera (PCV) will show an increase on Hemoglobin/Hematocrit but how you tell the difference between the two is you will see an elevated blood platelet count usually near the high range which i believe can be near 1 million off the top of my head and elevated white blood cells. This case you do need to donate as your blood is thick.
Guess what? A Sherpa's average hemoglobin is? 24. Do they donate? No, because there blood is not thicker it simply has more red blood cells and oxygen in it. its the same reason athletes train at a higher elevation.
So to make a long story short testosterone will not increase bloods consistency and Hematologist and primary care Docs are mis diagnosing this condition. You will live to see another day.

ok i had a huge rebuttal, but i will agree to disagree on this matter, yes according to some test usually is read as a false positive,,, but test to me and many many others is still either indirectly, or directly related to what u say it doesnt do... sorry man but when i stop injecting my numbers all fall lower than when i am injecting... if u inject test ur body overcompensates for the extra rbc... by causing the other issues... sure u may not have to give blood, but "Testosterone causes Erythocytosis which is an increase in Red blood cells" actually leads to what u are saying:



Polycythemia vera also may result in production of too many of the other types of blood cells — white blood cells and platelets. But it's the excess red blood cells that thicken your blood and cause most of the concerns associated with polycythemia vera.


so again i ask how test is not directly or indirectly related when everywhere u do research it says the opposites?


now i do know there is an awesome thread here at TID explaining hematocrit, and that when its high its usually a sign of not being hydrated enough... zeek started the thread and a girl who is in the med feild stopped him cold turkey and explained hydration to lower hematocrit....
 
crowman

crowman

MuscleHead
Nov 2, 2011
1,229
204
ok i had a huge rebuttal, but i will agree to disagree on this matter, yes according to some test usually is read as a false positive,,, but test to me and many many others is still either indirectly, or directly related to what u say it doesnt do... sorry man but when i stop injecting my numbers all fall lower than when i am injecting... if u inject test ur body overcompensates for the extra rbc... by causing the other issues... sure u may not have to give blood, but "Testosterone causes Erythocytosis which is an increase in Red blood cells" actually leads to what u are saying:



Polycythemia vera also may result in production of too many of the other types of blood cells — white blood cells and platelets. But it's the excess red blood cells that thicken your blood and cause most of the concerns associated with polycythemia vera.


so again i ask how test is not directly or indirectly related when everywhere u do research it says the opposites?


now i do know there is an awesome thread here at TID explaining hematocrit, and that when its high its usually a sign of not being hydrated enough... zeek started the thread and a girl who is in the med feild stopped him cold turkey and explained hydration to lower hematocrit....

So you are saying when you stop test your hemoglobin and hematocrit drop? Precisely, the amount of oxygen in your blood drops. Test causes an increase in blood so take it away and there goes your oxygen and there goes your elevated numbers

Elevation, hydration, smoking, and a few other things play a role in Hemoglobin and hematocrit numbers.

You stated the problem word for word "everywhere u do research it says the opposites". Who put those tests on? I can show you the new england journal of medicine stating to date no testosterone has ever been linked to blood thickening.

From the NEJM 350.(5):482-492 ‘It is reassuring that as far as we can determine no testosterone-associated Thromboembolic events have been reported to date”. NEJM 2004

If you go looking for an answer your going to find it. Its so hard for the average person to decipher these studies since they are so skewed by whomever put them on.

Have you ever heard of the "Womens Health initiative"? It was the studies that show Estrogen in women causes cancer. If you only knew how that study was performed. I will get to that later. Here is another prime example of who put the study on and what was there initiative?

marijuana kills brain cells- abbreviated version- they pumped over 500 joints through a gas mask on a monkey in less than 5 minutes. Anyone knows with that much smoke there is no oxygen. guess what dies when you dont have oxygen? Brain cells. I.E. Marijuana kills brain cells.
 
J

J2048b

MuscleHead
Jul 2, 2012
286
82
yes ive heard and actually saw a movie explaining the pot and monkey thing, anything to pass their own agenda is usually how docs get more money and crap like that, so i guess i just read it wrong, but u are saying this:

Well it DOESN'T! Thats right Testosterone ( im not referring to other drugs simply TRT since that is what we are talking about) does not raise bloods thickness or consistency.

so test may not directly cause blood to thicken, i agree, BUT is it indirectly causing it because of these 2 items:??

testosterone causes Erythocytosis which is an increase in Red blood cells" actually leads to what u are saying:



Polycythemia vera also may result in production of too many of the other types of blood cells — white blood cells and platelets. But it's the excess red blood cells that thicken your blood and cause most of the concerns associated with polycythemia vera.


this is what id like to know because it sounds like the extra red blood cells the test is making or causing ur body to make is indirectly causing polycythemia, as read above ^^?

am i off on this?? i have to ask because it sounds like the extra red cells are causing the effects of the ploy, which in turn says extra thick blood...
 
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