My 20 week cycle...!!!

[brutus79]

I'd imagine GAINS wouldn't be as great during a B&C because you're not LOSING as much as you would doing a PCT.. There's less to make up in the beginning of a blast than if you just came off PCT. Thus, less "gains".

It's a lot easier to get back to a point you've been at before than it is to make new gains..

There's my rambling thought, look forward to Doc Jim's answer...

JB! Good to see you my friend!

 

[Get Some]

Perhaps your correct BUT the gains during weeks 1-12 will far exceed those of 12-20. Why? Tolerance builds to the anabolic effects of AAS over time UNLESS the HTPA is restored and an interval of "rest" occurs. I'm not saying gains will not occur in weeks 12-20 (regardless of AAS used) but they will pale in comparison to the benefits of weeks 1-12, IME

How about more vets opinions especially since there is NO LITERATURE on the subject that I'm aware of.

I would imagine for this particular cycle the gains will still be very good up to the 20 th week because the goal of each half of the cycle is completely different. Tren is the strongest compound being used so it is good that it is being utilized in the second half of the cycle. Moving from highly anabolic compounds to highly androgenic compounds will have a pronounced effect on results. He'll dry out very nicely and continue to build strength through aggression. The ONLY reason to have any test for the second half of the cycle is so he can have some baseline levels and avoid any side effects that would result from running tren and masteron alone (which there are, I know first hand!). 12 week bulk plus 8 week cut/recomp is the best possible combo. coming off a bulk of 12 weeks then waiting for next cycle to cut would result in much more added muscle that would be lost due to time off. This way when you come off, you are not in the peak muscle building phase but rather the transformation phase. Cells will always upregulate and adjust to new hormones, this is why we can't buildi bioidentical hormones for everyone at the exact dosage that wil "saturate" their system. You can always continue to up the does as long as you are eating enough food and working out enough to utilize the incoming hormones... but that is an entirely different conversation.

 

[JohnMcc]

I can see what you guys are saying about B&C compared to PCT. Takes a big decision with a lot of thought to decide to B&C especially at a young age.

 

[dr jim]

So are you also saying those on trt will have less effective cycles? (Blasts?)

Good question!

Oh no not at ALL the two are not related since the former is a HTPA/Gonadal problem, while the latter is the result of SKM diminished responsiveness to AAS.

jim

 

[dr jim]

I would imagine for this particular cycle the gains will still be very good up to the 20 th week because the goal of each half of the cycle is completely different. Tren is the strongest compound being used so it is good that it is being utilized in the second half of the cycle. Moving from highly anabolic compounds to highly androgenic compounds will have a pronounced effect on results. He'll dry out very nicely and continue to build strength through aggression. The ONLY reason to have any test for the second half of the cycle is so he can have some baseline levels and avoid any side effects that would result from running tren and masteron alone (which there are, I know first hand!). 12 week bulk plus 8 week cut/recomp is the best possible combo. coming off a bulk of 12 weeks then waiting for next cycle to cut would result in much more added muscle that would be lost due to time off. This way when you come off, you are not in the peak muscle building phase but rather the transformation phase. Cells will always upregulate and adjust to new hormones, this is why we can't buildi bioidentical hormones for everyone at the exact dosage that wil "saturate" their system. You can always continue to up the does as long as you are eating enough food and working out enough to utilize the incoming hormones... but that is an entirely different conversation.

Thanks for that GS, but my experience is similar to Jens 16 weeks at the upper limit of proportional benefit, after that the benefit DECREASES because of biologic tolerance.

The latter can be mediated thru a variety of mechanisms WITHOUT AR saturation, since AR saturation is a theoretic impossibility.

Best
Jim

 

[jhotsauce7]

After 4 years of pct, and blast/cruise cycles I went off for 4 months, crashed myself.. Levels were 167 or so.. I took clomid for a few weeks and while I didn't get bw done after I felt many signs of recovered hpta... Now this is entirely anocdotal as I do not have the labs to back it up, but when I started running gear again at just 650mg test I started growing like a weed! Even eating at a slight deficit and doing cardio I was able to keep weight up relatively close to where I started while making great strength and size gains... Friends commented saying this is the biggest they have ever seen me ... And I feel like I am progressing way faster than when I was using way more gear ...650 test growing me more and faster than 400 tren 750 test and dbol... My observations seem to indicate that even in a state of TRT going off allowed for some sort of upgrading of receptors that play some key role in the pathways in which anabolic androgenic substances lead to increased muscle mass, improved LBM and what have you

 

[jhotsauce7]

Thanks for that GS, but my experience is similar to Jens 16 weeks at the upper limit of proportional benefit, after that the benefit DECREASES because of biologic tolerance.

The latter can be mediated thru a variety of mechanisms WITHOUT AR saturation, since AR saturation is a theoretic impossibility.

Best
Jim

also I have run 24 week cycles and seemed to taper off great gains after 16-18 weeks

 

[dr jim]

also I have run 24 week cycles and seemed to taper off great gains after 16-18 weeks

Thanks for the input HJ, but did the gains taper downward after reaching a peak? I know that is hard to estimate but is't been my experience and seems to be the case in most folk.

Again I'm NOT implying gains no longer occur, but the rate of "gains" most certainly seems to with cycles that exceed somewhere around 16 weeks.

You may achieve proportional benefit for more prolonged periods, perhaps because your obviously well conditioned.

Best

jim

 

[dr jim]

also I have run 24 week cycles and seemed to taper off great gains after 16-18 weeks

I overlooked your comment about the tapering off of gains. Obviously there will be some time differences among mates but eventually a lower rate of return dose occur, IME!

 

[Get Some]

Thanks for that GS, but my experience is similar to Jens 16 weeks at the upper limit of proportional benefit, after that the benefit DECREASES because of biologic tolerance.

The latter can be mediated thru a variety of mechanisms WITHOUT AR saturation, since AR saturation is a theoretic impossibility.

Best
Jim

I agree in the sense that the 8 week "cutter" run after the 12 week bulk would not see the same results as an 8 week standalone cutter. But, I'm talking more of the phenotype of the situation. You're coming off of a 12 week bulker, likely a little bloated and carrying some extra body fat. Any gear used at that point is simply to maintain the muscle you have gained during the bulker while in caloric deficit so you can shred fat. Tren is the only drug I have seen that is capable of maintaining muscle mass in caloric deficit. Some say clenbuterol has this same attribute but it has to be to much lesser of a degree. This is one reason why I recommend cycles of longer than 14 weeks to have some cutting/recomp element to them.

I am agreeable to the statement that a 20 week cycle composed of the same compounds at the same dosages throughout will experience diminishing returns. While I've known that saturation is theoretically impossible because of upregulation, I would imagine desensitization would have to play some role in this.

 

[woodswise]

My trainer has had me on blast since last September 1. September 1 to December 31 was Test E at 500mg/w and Deca at 600mg/w with Adrol only for the first four weeks. Then January 1 to May 31 I will be on Test E at 500mg/w and Tren E at 400mg/w while cutting. I am going to continue the blast on June 1 by increasing the Test to 750mg/w and Tren to 600mg/w and by adding Masteron at 200mg/w and Anavar at 50mg/d. He said while the gains keep coming and the sides are minimal, why would I come off, and the gains have kept coming throughout.

I think a lot of people confuse water gain with LBM gains. Initially during a cycle you can have gains of 5 to 10 lbs per week (mostly water), then the gains slow (i.e. as your body approaches homeostasis). Eventually you are gaining a measly 1 to 2 lbs per week and it feels like the train has stopped. You start looking bloated (especially if you are on a bulking compound) and you feel like you are gaining only fat. I have come to believe that on a long bulk on average I gain about 10 lbs of water in the initial few weeks and thereafter about as much fat as muscle. But the gains have (for me anyway) continued indefinitely.

However, after the next blast which will last another 10 to 14 weeks starting June 1, I am going to cut down to 100mg/w of Test E for a while to let my body recuperate. Then hopefully I'll see some real good gains on the cycle following that one.

 

[Get Some]

1-2 lbs I would still consider to be doing very well! That's 52 lbs a year if only 1 a week! I agree with the initial bloat, but just because you are gaining LBM, it doesn't always mean it will show in your arms, chest, etc right away.

I have to ask, why did you decide to run Deca for only 4 weeks? I did this myself in my very first cycle YEARS ago and deemed it a complete waste by the time I was done. The half life is so ling that I feel like it's just starting to get going by week 4....maybe. Personally I think you should have stuck with Tren from the beginning to avoid the bloat and "artificial" weight gain. You can bulk with tren just as easily as you can cut with it. Adjust your calorie intake and frequency accordingly to achieve desired results. Remember this when you are contemplating the next cycle, just a suggestion.

Also, how well do you respond to Tren? When you cut the test to 100mg weekly I would consider running the masteron and tren near the same dosage as this seems to have a greater effect than one high and one low. Even if you just bump the mast to 300 and lower the tren to 500 I think this will make a big difference for you as far as hardening up and gaining aggression in the gym (as well as the sexual benefits from masteron).