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Gyno or Lower Chest Fat

Jasthace

Jasthace

MuscleHead
May 29, 2011
581
89
It's basic common knowledge in the bro lore. .

Exactly . real experience

The scientific literature is a different story. The 19-nor/PRL connection is by far the most persistent myth in the BB community that I've seen. It simply will not go away.


I have had gyno couple of times from running nandrolone and trenbolone and also milky nipples but never with just Testosterone.. I was able to reverse it using Letrozole.


where's the attribution for that quotation? I assume the quote comes from an article on this site? If so, that article was discussed in depth and it was agreed that it requires revision.

I ripped it off a basic Trenbolone profile.. :) because its more accurate then medical literature and and guys chatting on a blog site about that literature



The medical treatment of choice for gynecomastia is and always has been SERM.

Regards

CBS

A Serm will only help to prevent Gyno . Only letro can reverse gyno.

CBS . How about your own personal experiances with gyno and how your treated and resolve the issues.. lets leave the paper wok out of it .
 
1bigun11

1bigun11

MuscleHead
Oct 23, 2010
2,142
1,832
"WARNING. Anabolic steroids do not improve athletic performance."

I can well remember back in the 1980's when this belief was so universally held by the medical profession that this warning was included in every package insert for Anadrol, Dianabol, and Deca Durabolin.

Guess what? Experienced bodybuilders and power lifters knew better. It stands to reason that they might better understand how to treat the basic side effects of steroids as well. Which is exactly why people come to forums like this for real world advice rather than running to some doctor who is just going to bleed them dry for money on lab tests and specialists.
 
C

CBS

Senior Member
Jan 7, 2014
183
59
"WARNING. Anabolic steroids do not improve athletic performance."

I can well remember back in the 1980's when this belief was so universally held by the medical profession that this warning was included in every package insert for Anadrol, Dianabol, and Deca Durabolin.

Guess what? Experienced bodybuilders and power lifters knew better. It stands to reason that they might better understand how to treat the basic side effects of steroids as well. Which is exactly why people come to forums like this for real world advice rather than running to some doctor who is just going to bleed them dry for money on lab tests and specialists.


You can probably still find those warnings today on the package inserts for AAS; however, the warnings usually stated something to the effect of "the evidence hasn't shown anabolic steroids are effective at improving athletic performance." The syntax is significant because there is a difference between saying they don't work and saying there is no evidence showing they do work.

The fact is, using AAS for performance enhancement was uncharted territory in the '60's and '70's and even well into the 1980's. Experimentation was needed to learn how to use these medicines effectively and that experimentation led to some studies showing they worked and other studies showing they didn't. For example, while it is well known today that 6mg qd of stanozolol won't do anything for a male bodybuilder, that wasn't the case in 1975. So it's not surprising that some studies used those low dosages and it's even less surprising that they concluded that it didn't work. It took a while for the facts to emerge and to arrive at a consensus. That's how science works.

Regardless, none of that applies today. AAS have been around for over 50 years and in that time, the 19-nors, and in particular, nandrolone, have been studied extensively. And in all that time, there has been no evidence showing 19-nors affect PRL levels or act as a progestin to any significant degree. Think about that for a minute. Why do you think researchers using pharmaceutical grade medicines and having access to lab tests and the best of equipment have been unable to find an effect on PRL, but bodybuilders, who are using medicines of highly dubious quality, and instead of lab tests, rely on some subjective symptoms of "milky discharge," have?

Regarding your final comment:

"Which is exactly why people come to forums like this for real world advice rather than running to some doctor who is just going to bleed them dry for money on lab tests and specialists."

The issue of 19-nors and PRL is one area in bodybuilding where the science has given bodybuilders a chance to avoid being "bled dry" by unscrupulous sources who are trying to sell unneeded ancillary medications to treat a side effects that only exist in the bro lore.

Finally, someone else suggested "leaving the paper work out of it," and instead, relying on anecdotal evidence. No thanks. While personal experience can be suggestive and often points to areas where further study is needed, relying solely on personal experience leads to the acceptance of nonsense like the bro phenomenon of AI rebound and trenbolone induced gynecomastia.

So I don't know about you, but if I'm going to expose myself to potential harm from using performance enhancing drugs, I want to base that usage on the best available scientific research and not rely on the advice from the "bros" on bodybuilding sites that is more often than not based on voodoo.

Regards

CBS
 
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dr jim

dr jim

MuscleHead
Apr 7, 2014
785
168
Its basic general knowledge in bodybuilding for those of us that have use a lot steroids. That the mixing of progestins can cause gyno { hard lumps under nipples} and milky discharge { when nipple is squeezed}

....Progesterone-related gynecomastia: The issue of gynecomastia, Estrogen, and Progesterone are all extremely complex processes that are not 100% fully understood. The truth of the matter is that Progestins are, in vitro and in theory, supposed to inhibit the production of Prolactin at the pituitary and the brain. However, there is much anecdotal evidence and reports from users that Trenbolone as well as Nandrolone indeed do trigger Prolactin release from the brain. Because Trenbolone itself is a Progestin, it also acts on the Progestin receptors on breast tissue. Prolactin receptors exist on breast tissue as well, and so do Estrogen receptors. This combination of Progesterone, Prolactin, and Estrogen can create a large issue of gynecomastia in a Trenbolone user. Prolactin-related gynecomastia from 19-nor compounds is typically seen in the form of lactating nipples alongside breast tissue formation. One of several (or more than one) methods can be used to combat this issue. The first is through the use of a Prolactin-antagonist drug (also known as Dopamine agonists) such as Cabergoline or Pramipexole. These drugs act on Dopamine receptors in the body, which results in decreased Prolactin levels. The second method is to simply avoid the aromatization of other compounds into Estrogen. For example, if Testosterone is used alongside Trenbolone (and it always should be), it is advisable to keep Testosterone at a low enough dose (TRT doses) so that it will not convert into Estrogen, or if larger doses of Testosterone are to be used then an aromatase inhibitor can be run alongside it. Controlling Estrogen levels should also control Prolactin secretion from the pituitary; however it is important to note there are some users that will not respond in such a manner and will still have Prolactin increases in a low-Estrogen environment. What also occurs is that Trenbolone (or Nandrolone) act upon Progesterone receptors in breast tissue and it is through this process that Estrogen receptor sites become far more sensitive to Estrogen (and vice versa – increased Estrogen can create Prolactin receptors that possess increased sensitivity). As a result, even the most minimal levels of Estrogen or Prolactin can trigger the formation of gynecomastia or lactation. Thus, it is always advised that one run a Prolactin antagonist (such as Cabergoline or Pramipexole) or at the very least keep it on hand while using Trenbolone or any 19-nor compound.....

The only product I know that can reverse existing gyno is letrozole

Oh yea I most certainly agree, it's "general knowledge" that is unequivocally WRONG!
I challenge anyone to locate evidence based human literature that substantiates this "knowledge"!

Nope the truth of the matter is the 19-Nor / Progesterone / prolactin connection is unadulterated BROSCIENCE period.

Jim
 
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dr jim

dr jim

MuscleHead
Apr 7, 2014
785
168
"WARNING. Anabolic steroids do not improve athletic performance."

I can well remember back in the 1980's when this belief was so universally held by the medical profession that this warning was included in every package insert for Anadrol, Dianabol, and Deca Durabolin.

Guess what? Experienced bodybuilders and power lifters knew better. It stands to reason that they might better understand how to treat the basic side effects of steroids as well. Which is exactly why people come to forums like this for real world advice rather than running to some doctor who is just going to bleed them dry for money on lab tests and specialists.

FYI
I evaluate MANY BB for nothing mate and do NOT accept patients from forums PERIOD. I do this to ensure BB KNOW there is another approach to BB using the science of TODAY rather than yesteryears news which you seem fixated upon.

You can believe what you want, but to suggest Doctors are evaluating athletes exclusively on a monetary basis, reflects your own bias and or personal experience.

My personal experience after some TWENTY YEARS OF PRACTICE? Not once have I detected a causative "elevated prolactin level" because of 19-Nor AAS

Jim
 
dr jim

dr jim

MuscleHead
Apr 7, 2014
785
168
Tyyyyyuuujujjj

Exactly . real experience




I have had gyno couple of times from running nandrolone and trenbolone and also milky nipples but never with just Testosterone.. I was able to reverse it using Letrozole.
========•=============•==
If an elevated prolactin because of 19-Nor use was responsible for your gyneco why did an AI (a drug which decreases E-2) "reverse it"?

Hey did you also happen to measure E-2, prolactin, Progesterone and TT levels as I have done MANY times to disprove this myth!
Jim



I ripped it off a basic Trenbolone profile.. :) because its more accurate then medical literature and and guys chatting on a blog site about that literature





A Serm will only help to prevent Gyno . Only letro can reverse gyno.

CBS . How about your own personal experiances with gyno and how your treated and resolve the issues.. lets leave the paper wok out of it .
 
Jasthace

Jasthace

MuscleHead
May 29, 2011
581
89
As I say I have never had Gyno from using Testosterone in very high doses .. only when I use a progestin such as Tren and Deca or Anadrol ,do I get a slight lactation,if I squeeze the nipples and also a hard lump under the nipple .. tis all Im saying.

I don't care for your paper work and basic blood tests.
 
dr jim

dr jim

MuscleHead
Apr 7, 2014
785
168
As I say I have never had Gyno from using Testosterone in very high doses .. only when I use a progestin such as Tren and Deca or Anadrol ,do I get a slight lactation,if I squeeze the nipples and also a hard lump under the nipple .. tis all Im saying.

I don't care for your paper work and basic blood tests.

===========================================
If you don't care to know the truth so be it, because those "blood tests" you don't favor would PROVE the causation is an elevated E-2 and not Prolactin.

No offense but I believe it's ironic your response is typical of MANY BB who cling to bro lore and insist 19-Nor AAS raise prolactin levels, yet refuse to perform those tests which would substantiate their claims.

The fact is, to date I've not seen anyone post an elevated Prolactin level because of 19-Nor use and that is telling IMO.

Respects
Jim
 
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Jasthace

Jasthace

MuscleHead
May 29, 2011
581
89
The fact is, to date I've not seen anyone post an elevated Prolactin level because of 19-Nor use and that is telling IMO.

Respects
Jim

So there by are you suggesting that the lactation is in fact from E2?
 
dr jim

dr jim

MuscleHead
Apr 7, 2014
785
168
So there by are you suggesting that the lactation is in fact from E2?


Do you believe pregnant females lactate in the absence of an elevated E-2? NOT!

It's unequivocal, even in those patients with prolactinomas Galactorrhea does NOT occur UNLESS E-2 IS ELEVATED.

Rest assured your not some outlier just because the mechanism of your E-2 elevation was an AAS.
Regs
Jim
 
Fanofiron

Fanofiron

Senior Member
May 11, 2014
221
55
Do you believe pregnant females lactate in the absence of an elevated E-2? NOT!

It's unequivocal, even in those patients with prolactinomas Galactorrhea does NOT occur UNLESS E-2 IS ELEVATED.

Rest assured your not some outlier just because the mechanism of your E-2 elevation was an AAS.
Regs
Jim

Hmm ok I'll bite. Let's say a guy is taking 750 mg of testosterone weekly for 2 months. Then he adds deca. Few weeks after he adds deca he has deca dick and lactating tits. What has changed? If nor 19 aas like npp, tren, deca do not induce prolactin as u insist then when would merely adding the nor 19 create the sides? Why would these same sides go away with the introduction of caber? I know several ppl that had this happen and were using an AI and the issues didn't go away until they used caber.

Fwiw I just keep my estro in check and don't personally use caber with nor19 aas. I've never had a libido or lactation issues when doing this. However I have also run 750mg of test with no AI and didn't get gyno.....surely my e2 was off the charts I was just painting the picture I'm not gyno prone.
 
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