This about sums up United and Kung Pow.

[Gms585]

I agree the government should select winners and losers.

However, stifling scientific advances and denying environmental impacts and risks isn't good either.

I didn't say internet should be free per say. Its cost and such should be regulated as well as its provided speed and access. Much like it is already and should remain.

We are not to the point of being able to afford free college. Yet. However, the higher education system in our country is vastly broken much like healthcare. Student loans, book costs, NCAA sports profiting. Its a broken and corrupt system that is unfair and unstainable. The debt burden alone being shifted onto kids as a result of the current system will have major long term consequences for our nation.

Your views on health care are hopelessly incorrect and indefensible. We are one of the only developed nations that treats health care as a for profit business. Countries that are able to pull this impossible feet off:
Norway, New Zaeland, Japan, Germany, Belgium, UK, Kuwait, Sweden, Canada, Netherlands, Austria, UAE, Finland, Slovenia, Denmark, Luxembourg, France, Australia, Ireland, Italy Portugal, Greece, Cyrpus, Spain, Korea, Iceland, Egypt, Switzerland, Israel, India, China, Croatia, Russia, Cuba....
I am sure I missed some....

I guess they are just BETTER then us? Maybe they're smarter? How are they able to do it? Before you say they don't have as "good" of healthcare know this : Almost All with a few exceptions on that list live longer then we do.
I'm sure you have a great explanation.

 

[Gms585]

Regarding income inequality. Honestly, I still don't understand why that matters, except to reduce envy in people who aren't happy that someone else has more than them. What should matter is whether those on the "bottom" rung of the economic latter have "enough" to get by. If they have enough (whatever that is), who cares if the rich guy has $10 more than the poor guy or a million more than the poor guy.
.

it matters. When wealth is ultra concentrated as it is and is even more so becoming. So to is power. Its called oligarchy. Sadly we are rapidly becoming one.

 

[JR Ewing]

The reason most of those countries can manage to provide decent "free" healthcare is mainly because they are smaller countries, they generally tax their middle and upper classes much higher than us, and because they spend so little on national defense.

We spend more than 15% of our GDP on national defense, and we also provide it for all of those countries you've mentioned that have govt-run healthcare systems that are functional.

I think you did your argument a huge disservice when you included brutal, oppressive dictatorships such as Russia, Cuba, and N Korea. I would not want to live in those places, and I wouldn't really want to live in China either. As corrupt as our government and politicians are, I'm afraid that a govt run healthcare system here would end up more like those dictatorships than like Euro-socialism.

Come to think of it, I would not want to live in countries that are bankrupt or near bankrupt such as Greece and Italy. Nor would I want to live in a country where it would take me a year to earn what I earn here in a good week.

Much of Europe also has also been suffering from other ills that are a result of wide open borders, "multiculturalism", political correctness run amok, etc.

We cannot afford it. We are 20 trillion in debt, and in recent years our debt to GDP has ballooned to well over 100%. Not good. And no, we cannot just print more money without it having consequences. We need to cut spending and start paying down our debt. Interest rates are rising...

Again, anyone in the US could always get healthcare prior to the ACA. It's an insurance scam that was all about control and wealth redistribution.

Why would anyone in the US trust their government with their healthcare, and want to give their politicians and govt hacks even more power over their healthcare?

And as far as college and industry, countries like China and India are kicking our asses because of their cultures and their lack of regulations. Our culture is devolving into a nation of politically correct wimps and far left loons who believe they are entitled and want everything handed to them. China and India don't provide free college for all, and don't let just anyone go to college who believes they are entitled.

If you want to go to college, there are many ways to do so. If your parents cannot afford it, you can usually get grants and loans. And here's another novel idea - you can work your way through like I did. I also got quite a bit of money for college from serving 4 years in the military. And people serving in the National Guard get their tuition paid for.

Where there is a will, there is a way. And something earned through hard work is always more appreciated and more satisfying than something that someone else gives you.

 

[Gms585]

To counter with points like:
*they pay more tax- Um then where? not NY not Cali. Also do the math and add into what you pay in tax the cost you pay for shit garbage health insurance that covers nearly nothing and had insane deductibles.
*we spend 15% on defense- SO WHAT?!? stop. Stop defending other nations! Stop being the world police! Take care of your own first!

I said Korea. South Korea has single payer also. Do you also dislike the booming economy of south korea? Cuba isn't nearly as bad as its made out and they are extremely healthy and out live US citizens by a large margin.

Now you dont want to live in Italy or Greece? Ok. Have you ever been there? Beautiful countries, great food, The women Oh Lord, Warm climate, Yes what hell on earth it must be to live there....

Now your against multi-culturalism? Whats the saying? melting pot. Were they talking about fondue Or this country.... Probably the fondue.
Lives is a country built on multi-cultalism; Boasts of its greatness; Mocks what made it great....

I'm not going to continue the college debate for a couple reasons. 1) If you cant buy into universal healthcare you will never buy into free education 2) Its way down the list compared to healthcare 3) I'm not as devout a supporter of the program i just see its merits

You're way off base on your beliefs on healthcare. I stand by that. There is no reason a citizen of the most powerful and wealthy nation on earth AND to exist thus far in history shouldn't enjoy the same or better healthcare as someone living in a third world country. There is no reason for it. Not to mention if we all shares the cost of caring for ourselves imagine the improvements in nutrition, physical activity and pharmaceutical technology.

 

[JR Ewing]

As the world's premier superpower, it is necessary that we provide for our own national defense. And we unfortunately need to provide it for those other nations to keep people like Putin, Kim Jong Un, and various other nuts from eventually taking over many of those nations who are our allies and becoming more and more of a threat to us. Sometimes we make very costly mistakes, of course.

One of the principles that our country was founded upon was that the federal government had a limited role in our lives - mainly national defense. Not to control our healthcare. If you want that, go live in Europe.

And your main premise you believe that anyone in the US is ever denied healthcare if they pursue it is incorrect. Poor people I know personally have many choices in my area for any healthcare they need. I could go to the VA for any limited healthcare needs I have had in the last couple of decades - luckily I have not had to do so... I pay for my own health insurance (which has gone way up recently), and have also had it through employers in the past.

The Castros were very bad to the people of Cuba. Yes, they provided them "free" healthcare and education (as they, the Castros saw fit to administer), but they were brutal, oppressive dictators who have lived far, far better than everyone else in the nation they ruled over. Many people were jailed, tortured, and killed for minor things that are not even considered crimes here.

I have traveled extensively. There are many places that are nice to visit but that I wouldn't want to live in. There are other places I've visited that I would never want to go back to even for a moment.

There are plenty of places that have great climates and food and lots pretty women. I personally think that things such as individual and corporate tax rates, business regulations, etc are more important - but we are 2 very different people - I'm a 47 year old capitalist pig businessman, and you're a young socialist idealist - nothing wrong with that, of course - but maybe you'll see someday that socialist ideals don't work very well very long in the real world. Until you realize I'm right on all of this, we won't agree on much of anything.

I'd go nuts after about a week if all I had to do was lay on the beach all day drinking pina coladas, and if my greatest ambition in life was to walk to the ATM once a month to withdraw my paltry monthly government income. But some people want that, and want a bigger and bigger check.

The "multi-culturalism" I'm referring to is the muslim problem Europe has. You'd have to be living in a cave not to have seen this play out in recent years. It is imperative that for a nation to survive longterm, it must have SOME laws and rules to insure the safety of its people. And that a sensible immigration policy should be one of those few things a federal government should focus on (not free healthcare for all IMO) along with national defense.

And that immigrants coming in should be carefully vetted, should contribute to the country they're coming into, and should assimilate and obey all laws and rules - there is no reason to have shariah law enforced as the rule of law in any jurisdiction anywhere in the US, for instance.

http://www.lifezette.com/polizette/cnbc-shocked-europeans-oppose-mass-muslim-migration/

I have always had to obey laws, rules, and customs of any country I visited. And many countries have much stricter immigration policies than us. It is much harder to become a citizen of many other countries than it is the US.

https://www.border.gov.au/Trav/Citi...tion-options/migrant-with-permanent-residence

 

[Gms585]

As the worlds "premier superpower" (LOL) we are under NO obligation to protect anyone other then ourselves. Furthermore there have been multiple studies that show dollar for dollar we get ripped off on our military spending. We spend $1 and get X while a competing nation spends $1 and get 1.5X. As a savvy capitalist I would think that would bother you and if you deny it you are living in a dream. We could cut our defense budget 10-20% and get tougher on contractors and net the same if not better results. I am sure you know that in your heart. A government contract in the defense world is as good as gold.

Wouldn't it be great if the founding principles of small fed could return. I would LOVE a libertarian society. Unfortunately realistically that is an impossibility at this point. There for a basic service of government is in fact as you said safety and healthcare is part of that.

I don't know how to combat the idea you have that health care is this obtainable thing in our country. Being crushed by debt as a result of getting sick and loosing everything you worked for isn't access. It's debt slavery.

The insane thing is you and I are not so different. I am sitting at my desk as a small business owner representing a fortune 100 company. I bitch about the insane tax burden I carry. Yet I have enough of a heart to say if I am already carrying this burden why not see something for it like universal health care. I guess this is a generational difference. You and your generation were brain washed into thinking any form of socialism can never work and any way but the USA way is lesser. My generation watched as you and yours floundered and failed leaving us with a shit economy and crumbing country and still tried to peddle the Uncle Sam knows best line of crap on us.

Your not referring to mutli culturalism you're referring is islamisation. Were not talking immigration policy. On this matter I support Dopy Don. Weak immigration policy and enforcement is a death sentence for any nation developed or otherwise. Universal healthcare and immigration policy are unrelated. Many "conservative" NONE progressives throughout history have seen the benefits of providing their citizens with access to healthcare.

Oh and FYI do some REAL research on global tax rates. I think you may be surprised to find that we have one of the HIGHEST corporate tax rates as well as personal tax rates. Keep telling yourself the lies we have been spoon fed for the last several generations. Eventually my generation will get the reins We'll see who does better with time.

 

[tommyguns2]

Ouch... You make some valid points, but I can't agree with much of what you say regarding health care.

I truly do wish that universal health care would be a good idea, but you say that you have libertarian leanings, and I can't see how you can reconcile liberty/privacy with universal health care. The reason I say that is that universal, single payer health care radically changing the relationship between the individual citizen and the state. (i.e,. Federal gov't). I can't imagine any area of my life that does not at least peripherally touch on my health. Since single payer basically socializes health care costs, then everyone else (fellow citizens, the state) now have a vested interest in whether I'm living a "healthy" lifestyle.

If the state determines that a vegetarian diet is healthier than a meat laden diet, why can't they regulate my food intake? If the state decides that sweets aren't "healthy" why can't they regulate that? The list can go on and on... it's quite scary the extent to which the gov't will be able to govern and intrude into personal areas of our lives in the name of "health care." And I really can't blame the gov't for doing it. After all, if the gov't has to pay for my medical expenses, it has every right to prohibit me from behaving in ways it deems adversely affects health costs. No sane libertarian would be OK with such a system.

Plus, just on a practical matter, How would single payer be any different than VA presently? Long wait times, poor service, etc. What's to be happy with a system that's "shitty, but free!"

 

[Gms585]

If the state determines that a vegetarian diet is healthier than a meat laden diet, why can't they regulate my food intake? If the state decides that sweets aren't "healthy" why can't they regulate that? The list can go on and on... it's quite scary the extent to which the gov't will be able to govern and intrude into personal areas of our lives in the name of "health care." And I really can't blame the gov't for doing it. After all, if the gov't has to pay for my medical expenses, it has every right to prohibit me from behaving in ways it deems adversely affects health costs. No sane libertarian would be OK with such a system.

Plus, just on a practical matter, How would single payer be any different than VA presently? Long wait times, poor service, etc. What's to be happy with a system that's "shitty, but free!"

These examples are very extreme. In all of the nations I listed that has not happened. It extra wont happen here; Thanks is large part to people like you (and me) who dont want the government telling us what to do. Libertarianism simply cant work at the point when it comes to the healthcare industry in this country. The overall corruption and $ over people attitude that has been allowed to permeate healthcare in this country has made it so the only viable option is to tear it down and start fresh.

The reason it works and its better is because EVERYONE has to be on it. Politicians, veterans, Firemen, Rich, Poor. Thats how it works. Thats the only way it works. When Jim the senator has to have the same care as you or me things tend to work smoothly and better. Imagine if every congressmen and judge HAD TO HAVE the same health care as our boys coming home from the desert. Think we would hear the same complaints about the VA? Doubt it.

 

[tommyguns2]

I fear that you're correct, and that we're moving inexorably toward single payer health care, but I simply don't share your confidence that it will be better or less corrupt than a private system. And it sounds like you are advocating mandating single payer while concurrently outlawing private health care options. I suppose you could do that, but that will simply result in private clinics opening up in the Caribbean, Canada, Mexico, Latin America, etc. That way, I'll go to the crappy US "free" system for my check ups, etc. and then when something is actually important I'll go to a private clinic and get it done right and immediately. So even then the rich people will get better care than everyone else.

Canada tried to outlaw private insurance, but it was ruled unconstitutional several years ago. So what's happening now in Canada is that private "club" practices are springing up, and I would envision the same thing here in the US. In that case, I would join a private group like a country club. It would have limited membership, you pay an entrance fee, and monthly dues, and then you go in and see your doc whenever you want, and there is no wait. Home visits will even happen again. And then all the people on the crappy gov't system will complain that they have to wait 4 months for an MRI or a biopsy, while the rich get "better" care.

I really don't understand why you feel confident that the U.S. gov't would run health care any better than VA. VA has plenty of funding, but it's complete mess. Why would US health care for everyone be any better?

Lastly, I don't share your view that all the other countries have good health care systems that they're happy with. Canada has long wait lines, and in the UK, many people die of cancer, waiting for their treatments to begin. Rationing care isn't done by denying someone care. Instead, rationing occurs, by limiting the number of MRI machines a facility can have, and then everyone has to wait in line for their "free" care. So, you need a knee replacement? No problem, we've got your surgery scheduled for 6 months from now. What are you bitching about not being able to walk? It's free?

Lastly, on the free care thing, how big will your FICA tax need to increase to pay for your free care?

I do think we're moving toward single payer health care, but I think it's going to be a disaster....

 

[JR Ewing]

As the worlds "premier superpower" (LOL) we are under NO obligation to protect anyone other then ourselves. Furthermore there have been multiple studies that show dollar for dollar we get ripped off on our military spending. We spend $1 and get X while a competing nation spends $1 and get 1.5X. As a savvy capitalist I would think that would bother you and if you deny it you are living in a dream. We could cut our defense budget 10-20% and get tougher on contractors and net the same if not better results. I am sure you know that in your heart. A government contract in the defense world is as good as gold.

Wouldn't it be great if the founding principles of small fed could return. I would LOVE a libertarian society. Unfortunately realistically that is an impossibility at this point. There for a basic service of government is in fact as you said safety and healthcare is part of that.

I don't know how to combat the idea you have that health care is this obtainable thing in our country. Being crushed by debt as a result of getting sick and loosing everything you worked for isn't access. It's debt slavery.

The insane thing is you and I are not so different. I am sitting at my desk as a small business owner representing a fortune 100 company. I bitch about the insane tax burden I carry. Yet I have enough of a heart to say if I am already carrying this burden why not see something for it like universal health care. I guess this is a generational difference. You and your generation were brain washed into thinking any form of socialism can never work and any way but the USA way is lesser. My generation watched as you and yours floundered and failed leaving us with a shit economy and crumbing country and still tried to peddle the Uncle Sam knows best line of crap on us.

Your not referring to mutli culturalism you're referring is islamisation. Were not talking immigration policy. On this matter I support Dopy Don. Weak immigration policy and enforcement is a death sentence for any nation developed or otherwise. Universal healthcare and immigration policy are unrelated. Many "conservative" NONE progressives throughout history have seen the benefits of providing their citizens with access to healthcare.

Oh and FYI do some REAL research on global tax rates. I think you may be surprised to find that we have one of the HIGHEST corporate tax rates as well as personal tax rates. Keep telling yourself the lies we have been spoon fed for the last several generations. Eventually my generation will get the reins We'll see who does better with time.

I agree that we overpay on defense spending. I never said otherwise, never denied it, don't live in a dream world about such a thing, and never said that we should just throw trillions and trillions infinitely into a bottomless pit even on defense spending.

Just because I believe that the primary concern of the federal govt should be national defense doesn’t mean that I think we should spend an unlimited amount of $ there. I am not living in a dream. Stop putting words into my mouth. We may not be under any obligation to protect anyone else, but you leftists would be the first people crying if we ever failed to protect or help anyone you people agree are among our allies… Of course the previous admin seemed to believe that Iran was an ally and Israel was an enemy.

I don't know why you leftists assume so much and put words into people's mouths. The government basically way overpays for everything, is fundamentally corrupt, and is largely incompetent at just about everything (save national defense for the most part and a few other things), and this again is why they have no business controlling our healthcare.

Healthcare has always been obtainable to anyone who needs it. What you on the far left want to do is push us all into the same system that the poor and un-insurable are in – making it even worse for just about EVERYONE. Perhaps you should focus on fixing that system the poor and un-insurable are in and leave the rest of us the hell alone. Are you aware of the problems with the VA? Are you also aware that the politicians and leftist elites pushing them on single payer will be exempted from it? It's not good enough for them, but they think it should be good enough for the rest of us.

I have not been brain washed. It is you who is brainwashed and naïve if you think that US government controlled healthcare will be best for most of us and for the country as a whole. We are not at all alike. The shit economy you speak of was actually largely caused by the government insisting that everyone should be a homeowner.

https://www.ffiec.gov/cra/

Where did I ever say that universal health care and immigration policy were somehow "related"? Stop putting words into my mouth.

I don’t need to do any REAL (as opposed to “fake”?) research on global tax rates. As someone with an education in business, plus multiple securities, financial planning, and insurance licenses, plus a couple of decades of experience in various financial services industries, and as the owner of a thriving small investment advisory business, I am very well versed in this subject…if you really worked in the same industry as I do you’d know that I already know these things and wouldn’t feel the need to try to “educate” me on what is very common knowledge to those in my industry, particularly those of us who are self-employed…

And I am well aware that our corporate tax rate is the highest in the civilized world, and have stated repeatedly on this board that we need to lower it. Where did I say that the US had the lowest or one of the lowest corporate tax rates in the world? Stop putting words into my mouth.

As for personal tax rates, we are lower than most countries. FYI, there is more to taxation than just income tax, and the US does offer plenty of standard exemptions on corp and individual income taxes for various things.

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/how-do-us-taxes-compare-internationally


I’m not telling myself any lies, but if the leftist garbage your sheltered, useless, career social science university professors are feeding you leads you to believe this, there’s nothing I can do about it.

 

[Grumpyfit]

We don't need to cut defense budget, just wiser spending, which could be said across the entire spectrum.

 

[JR Ewing]

This is the god of the far left who believe that the US govt controlling our healthcare is best:

http://fusion.net/this-old-copy-of-bernie-sanders-resume-from-the-1980s-i-1793854662

https://spectator.org/65498_bernie-sanders-didnt-make-paycheck-until-he-turned-40/

Bernie Sanders basically lived much of his adult life crashing on the couch of one friend or relative or another, and barely earned any $ until he got into government - no wonder he believes government is the answer to everything.

I'm sure Bernie is enjoying that new home the Clinton camp bought for him in exchange for dropping out and throwing his support behind Clinton.

http://insider.foxnews.com/2016/08/09/report-bernie-sanders-just-bought-third-home-600k-lake-house