so when do u stop?

[SAD]

just a side note, both these are in relation to anabolic steriods, NOT specifically or only testosterone which is what i was specifically referring to. so which anabolic steriod is causing the long lasting effects?

Unfortunately, and I wish there were, but there aren't many studies done like this one. A common factor that it does mention is that all of the former users tested used testosterone. I infer, and this is JUST an inference, that if 10 guys all have the same results from the biopsies, and the one thing they all had in common was testosterone use, than testosterone is most likely the major contributing factor to permanent benefits. I wish somebody would do a similar study on guys who had ONLY used testosterone, to prove that point, but I can't find one. I know Shine and GS seem to have a plethora of studies relating to many subjects on AAS, so hopefully they will chime in.

Shine? GS? I defer to your greater knowledge.........

 

[SAD]

Do the Effects of Testosterone on Muscle Strength, Physical Function, Body Composition, And Quality of Life Persist Six Months after Treatment in Intermediate-Frail and Frail Elderly Men?
Matthew D. L. O'Connell, Stephen A. Roberts, Upendram Srinivas-Shankar, Abdelouahid Tajar, Martin J. Connolly, Judith E. Adams, Jackie A. Oldham and Frederick C. W. Wu
- Author Affiliations

Andrology Research Unit, Developmental & Regenerative Biomedicine Research Group (M.D.L.O., U.S.-S., F.C.W.W.), Manchester Academic Health Science Centre, Manchester Royal Infirmary, The University of Manchester, Manchester, United Kingdom M13 9WL; Health Sciences Methodology (S.A.R.), Manchester Academic Health Sciences Centre, The University of Manchester, Manchester, United Kingdom M13 9PL; Arthritis Research UK Epidemiology Unit (A.T.), Manchester Academic Health Science Centre, The University of Manchester, Manchester, United Kingdom M13 9PT; Freemasons' Department of Geriatric Medicine (M.J.C.), University of Auckland, 1142 Auckland, New Zealand; Clinical Radiology, Imaging Science, and Biomedical Engineering (J.E.A.), Manchester Academic Health Science Centre, The University of Manchester, United Kingdom M13 6PT; Centre for Rehabilitation Science (J.A.O.), The University of Manchester, United Kingdom M13 9WL; and St Helens and Knowsley Teaching Hospitals NHS Trust (U.S.-S.), St Helens, United Kingdom WA9 3DA
Address all correspondence and requests for reprints to: Professor Frederick C.W. Wu, Andrology Research Unit, Department of Medicine and Endocrinology, University of Manchester, Manchester Royal Infirmary, Grafton Street, Manchester, United Kingdom M13 9WL. E-mail: [email protected].
Abstract
Context:Short-term testosterone (T) treatment in frail elderly men improves muscle mass and strength. It is unclear whether these effects can be maintained post treatment.

Objective:To assess the durability of androgen effects in frail men.

Design and Setting:Single center, randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial to investigate the effects of 6 months T (25–75 mg daily) on muscle strength, body composition, physical function, and quality of life (QoL). Participants were assessed at the end of treatment (6 months) and 6 months after treatment cessation (12 months).

Participants:274 intermediate-frail and frail elderly men aged 65–90 years with low T levels.

Results:Mean T increased from 11.1 (3.1) nmol/liter at baseline to 18.4 (3.5) nmol/liter at 6 months, then declined to 10.5 (3.7) nmol/L at 12 months, in the T-treated group. Isometric knee extension peak torque increased in the T-treated group compared with placebo to give an adjusted mean difference (95% CI) between groups of 8.1 (−0.2 to 16.5) Nm at 6 months. Lean mass increased in the T-treated group giving a difference between groups of 1.2 (0.8 to 1.7) kg at 6 months. Somatic and sexual symptoms improved during treatment. None of these differences between groups remained at 12 months. Prostate specific antigen (PSA) levels and haematocrit increased slightly during treatment but returned to baseline by 12 months.

Conclusion:The effects of 6-month T treatment on muscle strength, lean mass, and QoL in frail men are not maintained at 6 months post treatment.

Do the Effects of Testosterone on Muscle Strength, Physical Function, Body Composition, And Quality of Life Persist Six Months after Treatment in Intermediate-Frail and Frail Elderly Men?

As I suspected, no mention of PCT (not that it would be effective for a 90 year old man). No mention of any type of resistance training. No mention of diet.

Also, some of the men were given 75mgs daily!!! :-t That's 525mgs/week, hardly a TRT dose, yet the treated men only put on an average of 1.2kg more weight than the untreated group. I think that shows, off the topic, that it doesn't matter how much gear you take, if you don't train and eat right, and continue to do so after the cycle, you won't gain or keep much of anything.

All in all, I think the study was set up to fail. IMO the conclusion should say "The effects of T treatment on muscle strenght, lean mass, and QoL in ANYBODY are not maintained 6 months post treatment WITHOUT a proper PCT (or TRT if you need it) and proper diet and training." I'd be happy with that conclusion.

 

[AllTheWay]

As I suspected, no mention of PCT (not that it would be effective for a 90 year old man). No mention of any type of resistance training. No mention of diet.

Also, some of the men were given 75mgs daily!!! :-t That's 525mgs/week, hardly a TRT dose, yet the treated men only put on an average of 1.2kg more weight than the untreated group. I think that shows, off the topic, that it doesn't matter how much gear you take, if you don't train and eat right, and continue to do so after the cycle, you won't gain or keep much of anything.

All in all, I think the study was set up to fail. IMO the conclusion should say "The effects of T treatment on muscle strenght, lean mass, and QoL in ANYBODY are not maintained 6 months post treatment WITHOUT a proper PCT (or TRT if you need it) and proper diet and training." I'd be happy with that conclusion.

i do believe you were the one who said that PCT doesnt work in men in that age group
not that PCT is normally successful for guys who are 60+ so why would they bother.

 

[SAD]

i do believe you were the one who said that PCT doesnt work in men in that age group
not that PCT is normally successful for guys who are 60+ so why would they bother.

Because it would show that they had done their research and set the study up to at least try to be objective and controlled. Not to mention the men in the study already had low T levels, so I'm not sure what they expected as far as "lasting effects". Obviously testosterone therapy doesn't permanently raise testosterone levels, and so if the men had normal T levels, they may have been able to hang on to the muscular changes that take place. However, low T will keep you from keeping gains made at the gym WITHOUT testosterone therapy, so again, I think the study was set up to fail.

Or they could have just stated for the conclusion "Testosterone doesn't permanently raise testosterone." (duh)

 

[Dangling Unit]

As I suspected, no mention of PCT (not that it would be effective for a 90 year old man). No mention of any type of resistance training. No mention of diet.

Also, some of the men were given 75mgs daily!!! :-t That's 525mgs/week, hardly a TRT dose, yet the treated men only put on an average of 1.2kg more weight than the untreated group. I think that shows, off the topic, that it doesn't matter how much gear you take, if you don't train and eat right, and continue to do so after the cycle, you won't gain or keep much of anything.

All in all, I think the study was set up to fail. IMO the conclusion should say "The effects of T treatment on muscle strenght, lean mass, and QoL in ANYBODY are not maintained 6 months post treatment WITHOUT a proper PCT (or TRT if you need it) and proper diet and training." I'd be happy with that conclusion.

You cannot say for certain that 75-mg/day is not a TRT dose. There is no line drawn that differentiates between TRT and abuse. Every body is different and processes chemicals differently.

How can you say the study was set-up to fail? What if the information they gathered was what they wanted, not necessarily what you wanted?

BTW, you can keep gains without PCT.

 

[SHINE]

interesting blurb in MD this month about the lack of long term increases in muscle strength from testosteron therapy. they gave men age 65-90 TRT for 6 months. while on they had marked increases in muscle mass and strength. but within 6 months of stopping, it was all gone. (journal of clinical endocrinology metabolism,96: 454-458, 2011)

so i guess if you want to maintain the muscle, you have to maintain the TRT.

That's an interesting article, I have seen first hand an old guy at the clinic that was put on hrt (about 82-or so) The ol boy came in using a damn walker. Now he uses no walker , walks around like some one in there 50's or so and to add his mind seems realy clear upbeat. People that old will never recover with pct and have test levels worth a damn, even continuous clomid use barely puts them in the 300 range. depreesion is one of the main sides of low test levels in older folks. Glad you brought this aricle up ATW, I've red the full text although it's been ahwile.

 

[SHINE]

You cannot say for certain that 75-mg/day is not a TRT dose. There is no line drawn that differentiates between TRT and abuse. Every body is different and processes chemicals differently.

How can you say the study was set-up to fail? What if the information they gathered was what they wanted, not necessarily what you wanted?

BTW, you can keep gains without PCT.

Basic TRT begins with about 125mg of T-cyp ew , that will put some on the high side of the chart and slome are still on the low range. Biochemical individuality. Some need up to 200mg EW. I hate that aproach because unless the damn doc is smart enuff to add hcg it puts alot of guys on a hormonal rollar coaster. Not to mention you loose benifits of DHEA and pregnenolone without hcg use. This study imo was intended to fail to prove a point. Also looks like they were most likely using T-Gel (no mention of intramuscular Ij)

 

[SAD]

You cannot say for certain that 75-mg/day is not a TRT dose. There is no line drawn that differentiates between TRT and abuse. Every body is different and processes chemicals differently.

How can you say the study was set-up to fail? What if the information they gathered was what they wanted, not necessarily what you wanted?

BTW, you can keep gains without PCT.

The point I was making with my shock at 75mgs/day was that the average weight gain was still only 1.2kg in 6 months. Seriously? Some of the subjects took 525mgs/week and only gained .5lbs of muscle a month? Yes, you're right, every body IS different, but have you heard of a TRT doc prescribing 525mgs/week to get somebody's level into normal range? I have not, and I think we can both agree that even if you have, it is an anomaly. (BTW, I said it's "hardly" a TRT dose. )

The reason the study was set up to fail was because they tested frail, OLD, sedentary men, and then concluded that the results were applicable to all frail men. It has nothing to do with what I wanted, because that study doesn't apply to me. It has to do with the study being done on elderly men with low T levels already, and then making a blanket statement about the conclusion. It's similar to a study done on how much protein a human can utilize before the liver begins the process of gluconeogenesis, but then testing sedentary 70yr old 110 pound women, and applying the results to everyone.

When did I say that you can't keep gains without PCT?

Are you asserting that PCT doesn't allow for retention of more gains than without PCT? Or that it doesn't help to stave off TRT when done correctly?