so when do u stop?

[AllTheWay]

interesting blurb in MD this month about the lack of long term increases in muscle strength from testosteron therapy. they gave men age 65-90 TRT for 6 months. while on they had marked increases in muscle mass and strength. but within 6 months of stopping, it was all gone. (journal of clinical endocrinology metabolism,96: 454-458, 2011)

so i guess if you want to maintain the muscle, you have to maintain the TRT.

 

[SAD]

interesting blurb in MD this month about the lack of long term increases in muscle strength from testosteron therapy. they gave men age 65-90 TRT for 6 months. while on they had marked increases in muscle mass and strength. but within 6 months of stopping, it was all gone. (journal of clinical endocrinology metabolism,96: 454-458, 2011)

so i guess if you want to maintain the muscle, you have to maintain the TRT.

NOTE: I hate MD with a passion. I've read things in that magazine that were complete bullshit.

That being said, did the study mention any type of PCT? Did they mention whether or not the guys continued to train and eat properly? Did it mention the fact that these men should have STAYED on TRT because they were old as shit and probably had the testosterone production of a 7 year old girl? Probably not, because they just write a little blurb from a study as if it's gospel.

Not calling you out ATW, I'm calling MD out for continuing to make magazines with a little tiny paragraph that summarizes a study without clarifying anything.

 

[tommyguns2]

TG and Oldman are you guys on TRT because of your AAS use over the years or just because you're "eligible?" Only asking because I'm wondering if thats where I'll be in 10 or 15 years.

POB, I started TRT about 5 years ago, when my bloodwork showed slightly low test, but low free test. Started with a scrip, but that was too expensive, so I've been doing on my own since. That was my first experience with the dark side, so I was not one of those with AAS induced hypogonadism.

Since then, I've blasted on top of my TRT at times. My health is just fine, however, I do have to watch my blood pressure if I raise my dose above TRT or add in other compounds. I've been taking hawthorne berry to address.

My low test was likely a function of me working too hard, getting too little sleep and just getting older. I think all three things coming together caused it. It was weird, I've always been a optimistic, happy guy, and I started experiencing mild depressoin, and just started seeing the glass as "half-emply" instead of "half-full." I knew something wasn't right, but figured I was having a mid-life crisis. (which may have been true too, LOL). Beginning TRT has helped me in that area.

 

[AllTheWay]

NOTE: I hate MD with a passion. I've read things in that magazine that were complete bullshit.

That being said, did the study mention any type of PCT? Did they mention whether or not the guys continued to train and eat properly? Did it mention the fact that these men should have STAYED on TRT because they were old as shit and probably had the testosterone production of a 7 year old girl? Probably not, because they just write a little blurb from a study as if it's gospel.

Not calling you out ATW, I'm calling MD out for continuing to make magazines with a little tiny paragraph that summarizes a study without clarifying anything.

holy moly SAD. calm down! i find many of the studies interesting, that being said, i dont blindly believe everything that they say. i am a huge believer in things that are statistically proven. everything else, i take with a grain of salt and store for future musings and ponderings.

i would assume, as i didnt read the article, that these were men who did nothing as far as lifting or anything like that and im sure they didnt lift while on it either. but instead of freaking out about the fact that it was published in MD, look at the broad picture of the fact that there arent lasting effects from testosterone use. if there was, none of you guys would need to be on it ALL the time. so, like many have posted, it is a way of life, a way of maintaining what you have. my dad worked out for years! he does not do TRT and he is still very very active and he has lost most of his muscle mass and yes, he still goes and works out a couple times a week. he coaches collegiate shot and disc throwers and he bikes and does all the work around their place as fare as clean up and irrigation. i dont think it takes much to be open to the idea that testosterone therapy is not only a good thing but a necessary thing if one wants to maintain their muscle mass.

 

[SAD]

You're pretty sensitive to me being passionate about things ATW. Seems like every time I have a strong opinion about something you say things such as "don't take everything so personally" or "calm down!" or "instead of freaking out". I think you have a picture of me as this roid-raging loose cannon, when in reality I am a very happy-go-lucky guy, and rightfully so, because I have a great life.

Moving on, there are numerous points I'd like to make.

#1 - If the same short summary had been published in a medical journal, I'd still ask the same questions. No magazine should right a summary without complete disclosure, and try to shove implications down the throat of its readers without giving all the facts.

#2 - It's simply not true that there are NO lasting effects from testosterone use. (Ask for proof, I have it.)

#3 - Myself, and many others, are not "on it ALL the time". We cycle, and with proper PCT, continued intense training, and the right diet, gains DO carry-over to the next cycle 3-5 months down the road.

#4 - The reason your father has lost most of his muscle mass is not because he doesn't work out or stay active, because clearly he does. It's because he has very low free T levels. He would undoubtedly be even worse off if he didn't continue to stay active and work out. This just reiterates my question about why a study showing 65-90 year old men that stopped TRT and lost their gains is any surprise.

#5 - Could you post up the article or a place to find the article online, since you didn't actually read it? (Just busting your chops, you know I love a good debate.)

 

[SAD]

Before you ask, I'll just post up proof of point #2.

Anabolic Steroids Result in Permanent Muscle Gains | MESO-Rx Steroid Blog

Skeletal muscle morphology in power-lifters with a... [Histochem Cell Biol. 2005] - PubMed result

MESO-Rx

 

[Dangling Unit]

You're pretty sensitive to me being passionate about things ATW. Seems like every time I have a strong opinion about something you say things such as "don't take everything so personally" or "calm down!" or "instead of freaking out". I think you have a picture of me as this roid-raging loose cannon, when in reality I am a very happy-go-lucky guy, and rightfully so, because I have a great life.

It's not just her. I took it the same. Just being honest. No matter what you say, trenbolone screws with you, and I think you're in that zone.

 

[AllTheWay]

You're pretty sensitive to me being passionate about things ATW. Seems like every time I have a strong opinion about something you say things such as "don't take everything so personally" or "calm down!" or "instead of freaking out". I think you have a picture of me as this roid-raging loose cannon, when in reality I am a very happy-go-lucky guy, and rightfully so, because I have a great life.

LOLOLOL i am not sensitive at all and i dont have any picture of you honestly. i am not one of the roid ragers people. i have seen people lose it that have never even thought of taking AAS. anger issues are a personality thing. but that is another discussion.

Moving on, there are numerous points I'd like to make.

#1 - If the same short summary had been published in a medical journal, I'd still ask the same questions. No magazine should right a summary without complete disclosure, and try to shove implications down the throat of its readers without giving all the facts.

as you should, which is why i made sure to include the reference so you could go look it up

#2 - It's simply not true that there are NO lasting effects from testosterone use. (Ask for proof, I have it.)

how old are you? i do believe that this is in regards to 65-90 age range. and it im sure at that age it probably has a lot less lasting effects. (i figure if i put smileys behind every post you think that i am personally attacking you, rather i am just stating my thoughts)

#3 - Myself, and many others, are not "on it ALL the time". We cycle, and with proper PCT, continued intense training, and the right diet, gains DO carry-over to the next cycle 3-5 months down the road.

i didnt say you did or that all guys did, i just infered that there were men who did. how many posts does one read about cruising all year round. once again, not personal, just an observation.

#4 - The reason your father has lost most of his muscle mass is not because he doesn't work out or stay active, because clearly he does. It's because he has very low free T levels. He would undoubtedly be even worse off if he didn't continue to stay active and work out. This just reiterates my question about why a study showing 65-90 year old men that stopped TRT and lost their gains is any surprise.

actually his free levels are within normal range. now I KNOW that doesnt mean that it is enough, believe me, i read and interpret blood work every day. but he and i have had many conversations about this and i have given him testosterone for him to inject. and his exact words were 'it was great while i was on it but it was worse than before i started when i stopped.' where are the lasting effects? once again, age range has much to do with this.

#5 - Could you post up the article or a place to find the article online, since you didn't actually read it? (Just busting your chops, you know I love a good debate.)

when i get a chance, i will certainly try to do that. or you could go find it yourself since you are the one questioning it validity

 

[SAD]

LOLOLOL i am not sensitive at all and i dont have any picture of you honestly. i am not one of the roid ragers people. i have seen people lose it that have never even thought of taking AAS. anger issues are a personality thing. but that is another discussion.

Agreed.

how old are you? i do believe that this is in regards to 65-90 age range. and it im sure at that age it probably has a lot less lasting effects. (i figure if i put smileys behind every post you think that i am personally attacking you, rather i am just stating my thoughts)

Age (I'm 27) is irrelevant to the proof (see post #18) that I posted regarding long lasting effects of steroid use. The study posted clearly showed that the muscles themselves undergo permanent changes from steroid use, and age shouldn't affect that. The issue with a 65-90 year old is that they should be on TRT year-round, not in "cycles". Plus we don't know if they lifted before, during, or after the study, along with a host of other variables.

i didnt say you did or that all guys did, i just infered that there were men who did. how many posts does one read about cruising all year round. once again, not personal, just an observation.

A portion of the guys who are cruising all year round do so because, like a 65-90 year old, they don't produce enough testosterone naturally and are on TRT. Not all of those that fall into that category are on TRT from steroid abuse or misuse either. (We haven't even touched on muscle memory either, which is a very real thing, but also for another discussion.)

actually his free levels are within normal range. now I KNOW that doesnt mean that it is enough, believe me, i read and interpret blood work every day. but he and i have had many conversations about this and i have given him testosterone for him to inject. and his exact words were 'it was great while i was on it but it was worse than before i started when i stopped.' where are the lasting effects? once again, age range has much to do with this.

Too many variables to answer the question of "where are the lasting effects?". How long was he on? Did he do a proper PCT when coming off (not that PCT is normally successful for guys who are 60+)? You are right, age range has much to do with it, but not in the sense that steroids do not change the muscle makeup in older people the same way it does in younger, but rather, as I said above, TRT is not something that should be "cycled" for a guy his age. It should be a way of life, to improve his life, for the rest of his life. Of course it was worse than before he started, because at his age, recovery is vastly more difficult than for somebody my age who cycles. Again, if it was great while he was on, and it was a TRT dose, why didn't he stay on? (I think I know the answer to this question, because my dad is the most stubborn SOB on earth, and he has had low T for many years and still won't let the doc put him on TRT.)

when i get a chance, i will certainly try to do that. or you could go find it yourself since you are the one questioning it validity

On the contrary, I think the burden of proof falls on your shoulders. I have already posted proof of my opposite stance that steroids DO have long term permanent effects. (<<<-----That smiley encompasses the entire retort, lol.)

 

[AllTheWay]

Before you ask, I'll just post up proof of point #2.

Anabolic Steroids Result in Permanent Muscle Gains | MESO-Rx Steroid Blog

Skeletal muscle morphology in power-lifters with a... [Histochem Cell Biol. 2005] - PubMed result

MESO-Rx

just a side note, both these are in relation to anabolic steriods, NOT specifically or only testosterone which is what i was specifically referring to. so which anabolic steriod is causing the long lasting effects?

 

[gentao]

ive only done one cycle, but that one cylce was done cause i had chronic wrist issue's, so i figured anavar and test would help. And it did a great deal. Instead of abusing this stuff for looks i'll use it to benefit my well being

 

[AllTheWay]

Do the Effects of Testosterone on Muscle Strength, Physical Function, Body Composition, And Quality of Life Persist Six Months after Treatment in Intermediate-Frail and Frail Elderly Men?
Matthew D. L. O'Connell, Stephen A. Roberts, Upendram Srinivas-Shankar, Abdelouahid Tajar, Martin J. Connolly, Judith E. Adams, Jackie A. Oldham and Frederick C. W. Wu
- Author Affiliations

Andrology Research Unit, Developmental & Regenerative Biomedicine Research Group (M.D.L.O., U.S.-S., F.C.W.W.), Manchester Academic Health Science Centre, Manchester Royal Infirmary, The University of Manchester, Manchester, United Kingdom M13 9WL; Health Sciences Methodology (S.A.R.), Manchester Academic Health Sciences Centre, The University of Manchester, Manchester, United Kingdom M13 9PL; Arthritis Research UK Epidemiology Unit (A.T.), Manchester Academic Health Science Centre, The University of Manchester, Manchester, United Kingdom M13 9PT; Freemasons' Department of Geriatric Medicine (M.J.C.), University of Auckland, 1142 Auckland, New Zealand; Clinical Radiology, Imaging Science, and Biomedical Engineering (J.E.A.), Manchester Academic Health Science Centre, The University of Manchester, United Kingdom M13 6PT; Centre for Rehabilitation Science (J.A.O.), The University of Manchester, United Kingdom M13 9WL; and St Helens and Knowsley Teaching Hospitals NHS Trust (U.S.-S.), St Helens, United Kingdom WA9 3DA
Address all correspondence and requests for reprints to: Professor Frederick C.W. Wu, Andrology Research Unit, Department of Medicine and Endocrinology, University of Manchester, Manchester Royal Infirmary, Grafton Street, Manchester, United Kingdom M13 9WL. E-mail: [email protected].
Abstract
Context:Short-term testosterone (T) treatment in frail elderly men improves muscle mass and strength. It is unclear whether these effects can be maintained post treatment.

Objective:To assess the durability of androgen effects in frail men.

Design and Setting:Single center, randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial to investigate the effects of 6 months T (25–75 mg daily) on muscle strength, body composition, physical function, and quality of life (QoL). Participants were assessed at the end of treatment (6 months) and 6 months after treatment cessation (12 months).

Participants:274 intermediate-frail and frail elderly men aged 65–90 years with low T levels.

Results:Mean T increased from 11.1 (3.1) nmol/liter at baseline to 18.4 (3.5) nmol/liter at 6 months, then declined to 10.5 (3.7) nmol/L at 12 months, in the T-treated group. Isometric knee extension peak torque increased in the T-treated group compared with placebo to give an adjusted mean difference (95% CI) between groups of 8.1 (−0.2 to 16.5) Nm at 6 months. Lean mass increased in the T-treated group giving a difference between groups of 1.2 (0.8 to 1.7) kg at 6 months. Somatic and sexual symptoms improved during treatment. None of these differences between groups remained at 12 months. Prostate specific antigen (PSA) levels and haematocrit increased slightly during treatment but returned to baseline by 12 months.

Conclusion:The effects of 6-month T treatment on muscle strength, lean mass, and QoL in frail men are not maintained at 6 months post treatment.

Do the Effects of Testosterone on Muscle Strength, Physical Function, Body Composition, And Quality of Life Persist Six Months after Treatment in Intermediate-Frail and Frail Elderly Men?