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Clomid AND Nolvadex - The Reason

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MuscleHead
Sep 9, 2010
3,442
644
#1
Below is a short excerpt Q&A from a Michael Scally, M.D. article discussing the differences and synergies between comid and nolvadex. Instead of posting the entire article (which no one will read) I decided to pick what I thought was the most important section. THE SECTION THAT PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND. If there's one thing that I want to get people to understand it's that Clomid itself is a mixed agonist/antagonist that actually acts as an estrogen. Nolva is a pure antagonist. I've highlighted the more important pieces below for you "skimmers" out there :)

__________________________________________________________

Q: I have read that Clomid and Novadex are very similar products. Is this true? If so why would you need to take both?

A: The administration of antiestrogens is a common treatment because anti estrogens interfere with the normal negative feedback of sex steroids at hypothalamic and pituitary levels in order to increase endogenous gonadotropin-releasing hormone secretion from the hypothalamus and FSH and LH secretion directly from the pituitary. In turn, FSH and LH stimulate Leydig cells in the testes, and this has been claimed to lead to increased local testosterone production, thereby boosting spermatogenesis with a possible improvement in fertility. There may also be a direct effect of antiestrogens on testicular spermatogenesis or steroidogenesis.

Clomiphene is a synthetic derivative an estrogen. Clomid is a mixed agonist/antagonist for the estradiol receptor. Tamoxifen is a pure estradiol receptor antagonist. Clomid acts as an estrogen, rather than an antiestrogen, by sensitizing pituitary cells to the action of GnRH. Although tamoxifen is almost as effective as Clomid in binding to pituitary estrogen receptors, tamoxifen has little or no estrogenic activity in terms of its ability to enhance the GnRH-stimulated release of LH. The estrogenic action of Clomid at the pituitary represents a unique feature of this compound and that tamoxifen may be devoid of estrogenic activity at the pituitary level.

Perusal of the literature thus indicates that clomiphene acts in several ways in the human male; (a) due to its similarity of structure to stilbesterol it binds with receptor sites in the hypothalamus and pituitary, (b) It stimulates gonadotrophin secretion by acting on the hypothalamo-hypophyseal system, (c) the inhibitory effects of high levels of circulating estrogens (produced under the influence of clomiphene) on hypothalamo-hypophyseal axis are possibly prevented by its potent antiestrogenic behaviour. The result of these varied effects of clomiphene is an overall increase in gonadotrophin and estrogen secretion and accounts for their increase under clinical conditions.

In one study the administration of tamoxifen, 20 mg/day for 10 days, to normal males produced a moderate increase in luteinizing hormone (LH),follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH),testosterone, and estradiol levels, comparable to the effect of 150 mg of clomiphene citrate (Clomid). Treatment of patients with "idiopathic" oligospermia for 6 to 9 months resulted in a significant increase in gonadotropin, testosterone, and estradiol levels.

Cochran database summary showed ten studies involving 738 men were included. Five of the trials did not specify method of randomization. Antiestrogens had a positive effect on endocrinal outcomes, such as serum testosterone levels. Antiestrogens appear to have a beneficial effect on endocrinal outcomes, but there is not enough evidence to evaluate the use of antiestrogens for increasing the fertility of males with idiopathic oligo-asthenospermia.

In the over one-thousand patients I have treated for HPTA normalization after AAS cessation i have used the combination of clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen. I have used clomiphene citrate alone in many cases. I added tamoxifen to the protocol to see if I could get a better clinical response. This seemed to be the case although I have not had the opportunity to evaluate the data. When both compounds are used the clomiphene citrate is discontinued first and the tamoxifen is continued for 2 more weeks. as I stated in the post on hCG injections it is imperative to be tested while on the medications. thus one would be tested ~3-5 days before the tamoxifen expires. In the 1st stage described in the hCG post one tests for testosterone only. the serum T level determines whether or not the hCG is halted. In the typical situation the hCG is stopped and the CC & tamoxifen continued. the lab tests at the end of the oral meds is LH & T
 
GreatGunz

GreatGunz

VIP
Jun 10, 2011
1,667
166
#2
And we appreciate your vast knowledge and continuence of having our backs!
 
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MuscleHead
Sep 9, 2010
3,442
644
#3
Anyone that wants to read the Q&A session/article in it's entirety, please let me know and I will post it or PM you the link.
 
fixxer

fixxer

MuscleHead
Dec 15, 2010
993
162
#4
^why don't you stop acting like the gatekeeper of the link and post it? :)

Good article btw.
 
F.I.S.T.

F.I.S.T.

MuscleHead
Sep 24, 2011
1,318
115
#6
Great read GS.Thanks for posting it.The link as well gatekeeper.LOL

As ive posted before,I always utilize both in pct and do feel it's best.
 
usa

usa

MuscleHead
Dec 24, 2010
272
32
#7
I'd like to say that people need to also pay attention to the use of HCG for PCT as well. At times we can get tunnel vision and just worry too much about Clomid and Nolvadex that we forget the HCG. Which IMHO is a very important key in recovering from a AAS cycle.
 

SHINE

Friends Remembered
Oct 11, 2010
5,047
601
#8
^why don't you stop acting like the gatekeeper of the link and post it? :)

Good article btw.
Ain't this the guy that got his license yanked by the medical board??? (patients ?)

Some good info in there.

William L wrote some good stuff on the two a decade ago.
 
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F.I.S.T.

F.I.S.T.

MuscleHead
Sep 24, 2011
1,318
115
#9
HCG is best run during very long or SHIC cycles IMHO.I know many feel it's best used for ANY cycle but I just disagree.I do feel as you get older and your natty test production is decreasing,its better to use during all cycles,but when younger and during normal length and moderately dosed cycles,a standard pct is all that is needed.

Just my opinion based on my experience thru the yrs not only on myself but many others that I have been involved with.Not saying my idea is the only way or best way,just a way that has worked well for me and many others.
 

SHINE

Friends Remembered
Oct 11, 2010
5,047
601
#10
HCG is best run during a cycle and should be utilized during very long or SHIC cycles IMHO.I know many feel it's best used for ANY cycle but I just disagree.I do feel as you get older and your natty test production is decreasing,its better to use during all cycles,but when younger and during normal length and moderately dosed cycles,a standard pct is all that is needed.

Just my opinion based on my experience thru the yrs not only on myself but many others that I have been involved with.Not saying my idea is the only way or best way,just a way that has worked well for me and many others.
I agree older you get HCG is a must for your health.
 
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MuscleHead
Sep 9, 2010
3,442
644
#11
I agree with this... I've seen in my cycles that hcg is not necessary except for the heaviest cycles (which I don't even run anymore). A good HCG "blast" inbetween your last pin and the start of PCT will really get you on the right track. I've become more and more interested in HMG these days as well.

Another thing that I think is important to touch on is that after a standard 4 week PCT, your natural test levels will likely not be fully recovered yet. The goal of a PCT is to assist your body in reaching a level where it feels comfortable recovering on it's own. Imagine you are trying to make a cake, but you can't reach the flour on the top shelf. So you get a ladder (PCT) so you can get the flour down. After that, the cake is not yet made, but you have everything you need to make the cake. Although a simple analogy, that is a pretty good comparison of what you should expect out of a PCT. If you fully recovered after only 4 weeks, it wouldn't make much sense to advocate the "time on = time off" theory.

HCG is best run during very long or SHIC cycles IMHO.I know many feel it's best used for ANY cycle but I just disagree.I do feel as you get older and your natty test production is decreasing,its better to use during all cycles,but when younger and during normal length and moderately dosed cycles,a standard pct is all that is needed.

Just my opinion based on my experience thru the yrs not only on myself but many others that I have been involved with.Not saying my idea is the only way or best way,just a way that has worked well for me and many others.
 
F.I.S.T.

F.I.S.T.

MuscleHead
Sep 24, 2011
1,318
115
#12
I agree with this... I've seen in my cycles that hcg is not necessary except for the heaviest cycles (which I don't even run anymore). A good HCG "blast" inbetween your last pin and the start of PCT will really get you on the right track. I've become more and more interested in HMG these days as well.

Another thing that I think is important to touch on is that after a standard 4 week PCT, your natural test levels will likely not be fully recovered yet. The goal of a PCT is to assist your body in reaching a level where it feels comfortable recovering on it's own. Imagine you are trying to make a cake, but you can't reach the flour on the top shelf. So you get a ladder (PCT) so you can get the flour down. After that, the cake is not yet made, but you have everything you need to make the cake. Although a simple analogy, that is a pretty good comparison of what you should expect out of a PCT. If you fully recovered after only 4 weeks, it wouldn't make much sense to advocate the "time on = time off" theory.

Thank you gentlemen.

Great analogy GS.
 
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