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Clomid AND Nolvadex - The Reason

SAD

SAD

TID Board Of Directors
Feb 3, 2011
3,242
1,475
#25
As for me feeling good about GS agreeing with me,I don't have to feel good about it.It doesn't change what I and countless others have proven over the yrs while you were reading something else in a book or on the internet...YOU DO NOT NEED HCG DURING EVERY CYCLE KID!!!I have still yet to hear from anyone stating that they have or do take hcg with every cycle they have run and all the terrible things that have happened to them because of it.

You want to take everything out there,by all means do it.Druggies do that so I understand your stance.Just take more drugs and you'll feel better.Im sure Valium and Xanax have been a regulars for you as well.So dont mind me if I dont take my cycling advice from a coke head that has been through a "few" cycles because he read it on the internet.

I'll say it again...IM MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE YOU DO NOT NEED HCG DURING NORMAL LENGTH,NORMAL DOSED CYCLES WHILE YOU ARE YOUNG.As you get older,that changes.But taking drugs just because you need something to get you through the day isn't the right choice.Its the druggies choice.

Classy response. Thanks.
 
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F.I.S.T.

F.I.S.T.

MuscleHead
Sep 24, 2011
1,318
115
#27
Since you pointed shine out,I would actually like to hear from him on whether or not he thinks HCG is a "must" for every cycle and for every person.

Also,someandumb,since you're already admitted and proven through what you say that you are a newbie to cycling I was wondering where you are getting all of this information from? I mean where is your actual proof that what you think you know is true? Being a newbie to anything to me means NOT KNOWING SHIT about it.Maybe im wrong.Doesn't going from a novice in something to an intermediate to and advanced mean you have the time and experience to become those? Having the time tested and first hand experience to move up in rank?? I just want to hear how you've come to all of these well thought out and obviously un-proven theories that you spit out?? From reading it in a book or the internet???

All of what I say comes from actual practice.Trial and error through the yrs.While mommy was still playing with your pee pee,I was banging away in the gym and cycling.In the beginning without even a pct and guess what,im still here,I don't need a shit load of drugs or alcohol to get through the day and my mood has never been better! Im almost 50 and have 5 kids with my youngest being a son thats 4 yrs old so I think my balls are doing ok as are my friends and countless others I know and have been a part of with bbing and cycling.We must all be lucky?
 
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P

PPL Pounder

Member
Sep 16, 2010
32
1
#30
Since this thread was originally about the clomid/nolva combo, I'll post my question here.... If HCG was taken throughout a 10 week sus only cycle (750mg),do most of y'all think it is still necessarry to run both for PCT?
 
Needswork

Needswork

Senior Member
Dec 19, 2011
114
4
#33
I would rather be safe then fucked, and continue to keep fucking but i cant find that shit. So I am hoping adex while on and clomid/nolva pct do the trick.
 
dr jim

dr jim

MuscleHead
Apr 7, 2014
785
168
#34
Jim …………….

below is a short excerpt q&a from a michael scally, m.d. Article discussing the differences and synergies between comid and nolvadex. Instead of posting the entire article (which no one will read) i decided to pick what i thought was the most important section. The section that people don't understand. If there's one thing that i want to get people to understand it's that clomid itself is a mixed agonist/antagonist that actually acts as an estrogen. Nolva is a pure antagonist. I've highlighted the more important pieces below for you "skimmers" out there :)

__________________________________________________________

q: I have read that clomid and novadex are very similar products. Is this true? If so why would you need to take both?

A: The administration of antiestrogens is a common treatment because anti estrogens interfere with the normal negative feedback of sex steroids at hypothalamic and pituitary levels in order to increase endogenous gonadotropin-releasing hormone secretion from the hypothalamus and fsh and lh secretion directly from the pituitary. In turn, fsh and lh stimulate leydig cells in the testes, and this has been claimed to lead to increased local testosterone production, thereby boosting spermatogenesis with a possible improvement in fertility. There may also be a direct effect of antiestrogens on testicular spermatogenesis or steroidogenesis.

Clomiphene is a synthetic derivative an estrogen. clomid is a mixed agonist/antagonist for the estradiol receptor. Tamoxifen is a pure estradiol receptor antagonist. Clomid acts as an estrogen, rather than an antiestrogen, by sensitizing pituitary cells to the action of gnrh. Although tamoxifen is almost as effective as clomid in binding to pituitary estrogen receptors, tamoxifen has little or no estrogenic activity in terms of its ability to enhance the gnrh-stimulated release of lh. the estrogenic action of clomid at the pituitary represents a unique feature of this compound and that tamoxifen may be devoid of estrogenic activity at the pituitary level.

perusal of the literature thus indicates that clomiphene acts in several ways in the human male; (a) due to its similarity of structure to stilbesterol it binds with receptor sites in the hypothalamus and pituitary, (b) it stimulates gonadotrophin secretion by acting on the hypothalamo-hypophyseal system, (c) the inhibitory effects of high levels of circulating estrogens (produced under the influence of clomiphene) on hypothalamo-hypophyseal axis are possibly prevented by its potent antiestrogenic behaviour. The result of these varied effects of clomiphene is an overall increase in gonadotrophin and estrogen secretion and accounts for their increase under clinical conditions.

In one study the administration of tamoxifen, 20 mg/day for 10 days, to normal males produced a moderate increase in luteinizing hormone (lh),follicle-stimulating hormone (fsh),testosterone, and estradiol levels, comparable to the effect of 150 mg of clomiphene citrate (clomid). Treatment of patients with "idiopathic" oligospermia for 6 to 9 months resulted in a significant increase in gonadotropin, testosterone, and estradiol levels.

Cochran database summary showed ten studies involving 738 men were included. Five of the trials did not specify method of randomization. Antiestrogens had a positive effect on endocrinal outcomes, such as serum testosterone levels. Antiestrogens appear to have a beneficial effect on endocrinal outcomes, but there is not enough evidence to evaluate the use of antiestrogens for increasing the fertility of males with idiopathic oligo-asthenospermia.

In the over one-thousand patients i have treated for hpta normalization after aas cessation i have used the combination of clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen. I have used clomiphene citrate alone in many cases. I added tamoxifen to the protocol to see if i could get a better clinical response. this seemed to be the case although i have not had the opportunity to evaluate the data. when both compounds are used the clomiphene citrate is discontinued first and the tamoxifen is continued for 2 more weeks. As i stated in the post on hcg injections it is imperative to be tested while on the medications. Thus one would be tested ~3-5 days before the tamoxifen expires. In the 1st stage described in the hcg post one tests for testosterone only. The serum t level determines whether or not the hcg is halted. In the typical situation the hcg is stopped and the cc & tamoxifen continued. The lab tests at the end of the oral meds is lh & t
 
dr jim

dr jim

MuscleHead
Apr 7, 2014
785
168
#35
I really think this is much to do about nothing and will remain that way until Dr S publishes "his data", or the existing literature evolves into more than a few rat studies and one incomplete, as most are, Cochrane review.

I say this because while its reasonably obvious Clomid is MORE efficacious than Tamoxifen (or is it?) with respect to endogenous LH secretion, NOT! Why? Since when is comparing one drug at a dosage of 150mg QD the equivalent to another at 20mg QD? (Refer to the study being quoted) Ergo because both are SERMS of an IDENTICAL CLASS an equivalent comparison involves using IDENTICAL doses. Would that effect the outcome of these marginal studies, IMO you can count on it!

Lastly because these drugs are competing for the same E-2 pituitary receptors wouldn't combing them create a degree of competitive antagonism where the "winner" is the drug in highest concentration (Clomid)? (It's clear that situation does indeed occur with Tamoxifen which is one reason why it's more effective in POSTMENOPAUSAL breast Ca patients and ANOTHER reason why E-2 levels must remain suppressed during PCT)

Why take TWO SERMS for PCT? Acording to Dr Scally, using CLOMID first during PCT "sensitizes" the pituitary to the effects of GnRH such that Tamoxifen accentuates the release of LH when it"s begun thereafter. However because Clomid and Tamoxifen are both ANTIESTROGENIC within the pituitary, what often defines whether a SERM is an E-2 agonists or an antagonists is the TISSUE ITSELF, such as the differing estrogenic vs antiestrogenic effects of these SERMS within the HYPOTHALMUS.

So what to do with all the confusion? I honestly do not believe whether you use one, two, or shit why not THREE SERMs (Raloxifene perhaps) determines whether your PCT is successful at all.

However IF you develop intolerable side effects while using one SERM lowering the dosage and adding another seems reasonable, IMO.

jim
 
GetXXL

GetXXL

Member
Oct 3, 2012
27
1
#36
I stopped reading after the first sentence in bold as it stated:
Clomid is a mixed agonist/antagonist for the estradiol receptor. Tamoxifen is a pure estradiol receptor antagonist
Since when is tamoxifen a pure estradiol receptor antagonist? Tamoxifen is only a pure ERbeta receptor antagonist, as it completely inhibits AF-2 activity, and the ERbeta lacks a functional AF-1. However, ERalpha does have a functional AF-1 and tamoxifen functions as a partial agonist for it, this is well documented in literature.

The comparison of 150 mg clomiphene with 20 mg tamoxifen is from a very old study by Vermeulen et al. A lot of studies have been performed since, and clomiphene seems to be the most effective concerning HPG axis recovery. Additionally, of the two it is the only SERM which has been used for this purpose in hypogonadal men (there are several clinical studies evaluating its effect).

As Jim points out above, combining two SERMs will most likely lead to ligand binding competition between the two (atleast to some extend). I think the main reason behind combining the two, is that a lot of people feel 'bad' on clomiphene (mostly due to using way too high doses),whereas they do not on tamoxifen. By combining the two, the dosage of clomiphene can be lowered. Sort of a middle way between the two. Although such usage remains purely speculative, nevertheless anecdotically I see perfectly fine results.

In essence it doesn't really matter which SERM you use, use the one you're most comfortable with and apply hCG during your cycle and you won't take long to recover your HPG axis anyways.
 
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