October 10, 2011: We Will Occupy

[marx]

FIST...I think you have a good point, but you chose a piss poor way to introduce it, lol. Tea tastes better than hippy sweat.

Look to where the Tea Party gets its money, and its start. You think corporate guys want you to be free? They won't even pay a living wage without being forced- by people, working together, to make change.

Here is a bit of reality. The folks that make the rules make them to their benefit. No working class people are in Congress or the Senate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgbJ-Fs1ikA

Criticizing people who put their ass on the line for their democratic beliefs? Like the couch potatoes that say being athletic is ridiculous, cuz they could do it, they just don't have time, you know, work, American Idol... life is full. And anyway, I play softball some weekends.

Folks selling derivatives and other financial instruments THAT THEY COULDN'T EXPLAIN AND PRODUCED NOTHING-ONLY EXISTED ON PAPER broke the banks- and Mr Bush had you pay for them, and Mr Obama had you pay for them. But if we got an actual stake in the company's we bought- that would be socialism, so nope, that was off the table, here fuckers, you broke it, have a 700 billion dollar gift to fix the fucking thing, oh, and remember who bailed you out, campaign time is coming up, *wink wink*

Our bailout money became their bonuses and allowed companies to buy up their own stock, but putting strictures on how the corporations spend the money, although sensible, was decried as socialism.
Because corporations run the game. That is good socialism. Actually giving to people, the ones who do the work- BAD, well, for our overseers.

Here is your tax money:

Yup, I have specialized knowledge, I study this bullshit. Cuz our collective future as a democracy, as much as we have, depends on it- A Democracy with an aware and intelligent populace will do well.

"Whenever the people are well-informed, they can be trusted with their own government."
-Thomas Jefferson

But a Democracy consisting of folks making opinions from watching tv is fucked. The issues are too complicated. And good people who are well intentioned base their on a data set engineered to keep them under the thumb of the owners of our society. Same as it ever was.

I'm ranting. Without people to stand up and put their lives on the line to do the right thing, as they see fit, to stand by their convictions, to act FREELY and be independent, what are we? You don't have to like them but I think you ought to respect that they are doing it. Because we all talk at the TV, gripe to whoever will listen, and go on with our lives.

If the founding fathers had done that we'd be drinking tea and supporting a queen.

IMHO

 

[fixxer]

Guys its a beginning.As was said,the hippes were also laughed at and hated but you know what,THEY GOT SHIT DONE! Its funny how you can say how bad it is for others to stand up for what they believe in while standing on the sidelines.Whether you believe they are all being honest or not,doesn't matter at all.What matters is that so many,including the UNIONS are getting involved and speaking up.

Im sorry,but judging others for fighting back against a corrupt govt is not for you or me to do.The act of what they are doing is important.Its time for all to stop crying about whats wrong and do something about it.

Exactly, it's a beginning! It's a beginning to a change. I think this country is fucked in many ways and finally people are gathering together and speaking out. We should all be embracing this. I can't believe the amount of ignorant backlash here on this subject matter.

Edit: marx beat me to it, in a much nicer way. God damn I love marx.

 

[F.I.S.T.]

Look to where the Tea Party gets its money, and its start. You think corporate guys want you to be free? They won't even pay a living wage without being forced- by people, working together, to make change.

Here is a bit of reality. The folks that make the rules make them to their benefit. No working class people are in Congress or the Senate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgbJ-Fs1ikA

Criticizing people who put their ass on the line for their democratic beliefs? Like the couch potatoes that say being athletic is ridiculous, cuz they could do it, they just don't have time, you know, work, American Idol... life is full. And anyway, I play softball some weekends.

Folks selling derivatives and other financial instruments THAT THEY COULDN'T EXPLAIN AND PRODUCED NOTHING-ONLY EXISTED ON PAPER broke the banks- and Mr Bush had you pay for them, and Mr Obama had you pay for them. But if we got an actual stake in the company's we bought- that would be socialism, so nope, that was off the table, here fuckers, you broke it, have a 700 billion dollar gift to fix the fucking thing, oh, and remember who bailed you out, campaign time is coming up, *wink wink*

Our bailout money became their bonuses and allowed companies to buy up their own stock, but putting strictures on how the corporations spend the money, although sensible, was decried as socialism.
Because corporations run the game. That is good socialism. Actually giving to people, the ones who do the work- BAD, well, for our overseers.

Here is your tax money:

Yup, I have specialized knowledge, I study this bullshit. Cuz our collective future as a democracy, as much as we have, depends on it- A Democracy with an aware and intelligent populace will do well.

"Whenever the people are well-informed, they can be trusted with their own government."
-Thomas Jefferson

But a Democracy consisting of folks making opinions from watching tv is fucked. The issues are too complicated. And good people who are well intentioned base their on a data set engineered to keep them under the thumb of the owners of our society. Same as it ever was.

I'm ranting. Without people to stand up and put their lives on the line to do the right thing, as they see fit, to stand by their convictions, to act FREELY and be independent, what are we? You don't have to like them but I think you ought to respect that they are doing it. Because we all talk at the TV, gripe to whoever will listen, and go on with our lives.

If the founding fathers had done that we'd be drinking tea and supporting a queen.

IMHO

Thank you for the post MARX.Its good to see others realizing the truth about things.There have been some great posts in this thread on both sides.I don't agree with many as you've all read but respect all.As I continue to say....Our forefathers believed it was not only their right to fight back ,but their DUTY! Thats the only thing that has changed.As Halo said earlier,politicians have always been corrupt,the difference is in the past people fought against them and now we accept it.The excuse it "WHAT CAN I DO" or "NOTHING I DO WILL REALLY MATTER" One persons fight wont matter but dozens,then hundreds then thousands,then millions.......WILL MATTER.

 

[F.I.S.T.]

Exactly, it's a beginning! It's a beginning to a change. I think this country is fucked in many ways and finally people are gathering together and speaking out. We should all be embracing this. I can't believe the amount of ignorant backlash here on this subject matter.

Edit: marx beat me to it, in a much nicer way. God damn I love marx.

Thank you gixxer.Thats all im saying.A START.No matter what party it is you want to join..........JOIN ONE!

And respect others rights to fight against the govt in their own way.

 

[marx]

Well said. We want our country to be all it can be, to reach its potential for all hardworking Americans.

Conversation is good. Perspective shared in a respectful environment is essential.

Thanks to all participants, andthanks for getting her rolling, FIST...

 

[F.I.S.T.]

Well said. We want our country to be all it can be, to reach its potential for all hardworking Americans.

Conversation is good. Perspective shared in a respectful environment is essential.

Thanks to all participants, andthanks for getting her rolling, FIST...

You're very welcome my friend.At the least it got members involved and thinking.Expressing ones ideas is another way to start change man.It has to start somewhere.

 

[F.I.S.T.]

Occupy Wall Street is more of Left's familiar flapdoodle

(Washington Examiner) Marx and Lenin would be astounded ...

Any doubt that the Occupy Wall Street demonstrators represent nothing new was removed over the weekend when members of "The Charter Collaborative" posted on the movement's website their "American People's New Economic Charter." While it doesn't represent the official views of "any legal entity or registered organization," according to the post, there can be no doubt that the crowd-sourced charter emanated from the philosophical heart of the throngs assembled in New York's Zucotti Park.

The charter is chock-full of the same familiar leftist nostrums seen in Great Depression-era editions of the Communist Party USA's Daily Worker and on countless protest signs during Students for a Democratic Society-led campus demonstrations in the 1960s. Today, the rants about "American colonialism," "militarism," "people over profit," "living wages" and "economic democracy" are projected against a background of assumptions concerning "the 1 percent versus the 99 percent." No doubt, Marx and Lenin would be astounded that, amid the most prosperous and free society in the history of mankind, so many useful idiots could be convinced to protest against the very individual freedom and economic liberty that made it all possible.

One of the charter's contributors took it upon himself to calculate in an attachment what would be appropriate salary levels -- based on "concepts for economic sustainability and right livelihood" -- for various positions in the coming collectivist Valhalla. Under the new compensation calculus, bankers would be at the bottom of the order with a $20,000 annual salary (an amount equal to that paid to laborers). Realtors would get $25,000, lawyers $27,500, doctors $28,000 and nurses $27,500. Teachers, librarians, train engineers, bridge maintenance, and ship pilots would be paid $35,000. Bureaucrats would receive $28,500, congressmen $30,000 and the president $40,000. If those amounts seem paltry, it must be remembered that everybody will also get free and full health insurance coverage, retirement benefits, and education for children.

There is no indication in the charter how such figures were calculated, but perhaps a help wanted ad that appeared this week on Craigslist provides a clue. The ad was placed by the Working Families Party, the far-left outfit that fields candidates in local New York elections and is actively involved in staging and promoting the OWS movement. Job-seekers are assured the WFP offers training in "advocacy, public speaking, mobilizing, fundraising, networking and organizing," not to advance "a policy position" but in the service of "direct action." Besides the training and a "full benefits package," those hired will be paid between $350 and $650 per week, according to the ad. Paid over a year's time, that comes to $18,200 to $33,800, right in the range recommended by the American People's New Economic Charter. Even without the health insurance and pension, those aren't bad wages for hanging out all day and night in a New York City park while chanting "down with capitalism."

 

[F.I.S.T.]

You know what guys,this makes me wonder about something.They talk of such huge drops in salaries for everyone and at first you think WTF???? But think of it this way,what if the average salary was dropped to much lower % but health care was free,auto insurance was free,education was free,etc.If the overall cost of living went very low could we not survive on much less.Say the cost of salaries dropped 50% but the cost of living dropped 60% just as an example what is everyone thoughts on if this could work or not? Do cars really need to cost 50k? Do cell phones really need to cost 600? Does food shopping really need to cost you 300.00 for 3 bags of food?? If the cost of everything went down and insurance was paid by the gov't couldn't salaries be lowered and solve the entire economic problem?

I don't mean my salary just everyone elses! LMAO.

No seriously,Id really like to hear everyone opinions on this idea.

 

[MAYO]

FREE markets dictate wages and costs....New, novel items will cost more than their previous counterparts...ie cars, clothes, tech, materials, chemicals and so forth. These drive the cost of food up as well. Fortunately in a FREE market the gainfully employed's wages rise with that of goods and services......sans gov't interference.

 

[F.I.S.T.]

FREE markets dictate wages and costs....New, novel items will cost more than their previous counterparts...ie cars, clothes, tech, materials, chemicals and so forth. These drive the cost of food up as well. Fortunately in a FREE market the gainfully employed's wages rise with that of goods and services......sans gov't interference.

I understand why things go up in cost but what if the gov't actually said this is no more.What if they said,we are going to pay for much of our expenses and and lower the cost of living but salaries are also going to be cut? Could that not be a solution to everything?

 

[MAYO]

there is no government that can be trusted with that much power

 

[Halo]

An interesting article in Reuters today.

Who's Behind the Wall Street Protests?

Who's behind the Wall Street protests?

8:21pm EDT
By Mark Egan and Michelle Nichols
NEW YORK (Reuters) - Anti-Wall Street protesters say the rich are getting richer while average Americans suffer, but the group that started it all may have benefited indirectly from the largesse of one of the world's richest men.
There has been much speculation over who is financing the disparate protest, which has spread to cities across America and lasted nearly four weeks. One name that keeps coming up is investor George Soros, who in September debuted in the top 10 list of wealthiest Americans. Conservative critics contend the movement is a Trojan horse for a secret Soros agenda.
Soros and the protesters deny any connection. But Reuters did find indirect financial links between Soros and Adbusters, an anti-capitalist group in Canada which started the protests with an inventive marketing campaign aimed at sparking an Arab Spring type uprising against Wall Street. Moreover, Soros and the protesters share some ideological ground.
"I can understand their sentiment," Soros told reporters last week at the United Nations about the Occupy Wall Street demonstrations, which are expected to spur solidarity marches globally on Saturday.
Pressed further for his views on the movement and the protesters, Soros refused to be drawn in. But conservative radio host Rush Limbaugh summed up the speculation when he told his listeners last week, "George Soros money is behind this."
Soros, 81, is No. 7 on the Forbes 400 list with a fortune of $22 billion, which has ballooned in recent years as he deftly responded to financial market turmoil. He has pledged to give away all his wealth, half of it while he earns it and the rest when he dies.
Like the protesters, Soros is no fan of the 2008 bank bailouts and subsequent government purchase of the toxic sub-prime mortgage assets they amassed in the property bubble.
The protesters say the Wall Street bank bailouts in 2008 left banks enjoying huge profits while average Americans suffered under high unemployment and job insecurity with little help from Washington. They contend that the richest 1 percent of Americans have amassed vast fortunes while being taxed at a lower rate than most people.
BANKING LIFE SUPPORT
Soros in 2009 wrote in an editorial that the purchase of toxic bank assets would, "provide artificial life support for the banks at considerable expense to the taxpayer."
He urged the Obama administration to take bolder action, either by recapitalizing or nationalizing the banks and forcing them to lend at attractive rates. His advice went unheeded.
The Hungarian-American was an early supporter of the 2008 election campaign of Barack Obama, who will seek a second term as president in the November, 2012, election. He has long backed liberal causes - the Open Society Institute, the foreign policy think tank Council on Foreign Relations and Human Rights Watch.
According to disclosure documents from 2007-2009, Soros' Open Society gave grants of $3.5 million to the Tides Center, a San Francisco-based group that acts almost like a clearing house for other donors, directing their contributions to liberal non-profit groups. Among others the Tides Center has partnered with are the Ford Foundation and the Gates Foundation.
Disclosure documents also show Tides, which declined comment, gave Adbusters grants of $185,000 from 2001-2010, including nearly $26,000 between 2007-2009.
Aides to Soros say any connection is tenuous and that Soros has never heard of Adbusters. Soros himself declined comment.
The Vancouver-based group, which publishes a magazine and runs such campaigns as "Digital Detox Week" and "Buy Nothing Day," says it wants to "change the way corporations wield power" and its goal is "to topple existing power structures."
SLOW START
Adbusters, whose magazine has a circulation of 120,000 and which is known for its spoofs of popular advertisements, came up with the Occupy Wall Street idea after Arab Spring protests toppled governments in Egypt, Libya and Tunisia, said Kalle Lasn, 69, Adbusters co-founder.
"It came out of these brainstorming sessions we have at Adbusters," Lasn told Reuters, adding they began promoting it online on July 13. "We were inspired by what happened in Tunisia and Egypt and we had this feeling that America was ripe for a Tahrir moment."
"We felt there was a real rage building up in America, and we thought that we would like to create a spark which would give expression for this rage."
Lasn said Adbusters is 95 percent funded by subscribers paying for the magazine. "George Soros's ideas are quite good, many of them. I wish he would give Adbusters some money, we sorely need it," he said. "He's never given us a penny."
Other support for Occupy Wall Street has come from online funding website Kickstarter, where more than $75,000 has been pledged, deliveries of food and from cash dropped in a bucket at the park. Liberal film maker Michael Moore has also pledged to donate money.
The protests began in earnest on September 17, triggered by an Adbusters campaign featuring a provocative poster showing a ballerina dancing atop the famous bronze bull in New York's financial district as a crowd of protesters wearing gas masks approach behind her.
Dressed in anarchist black, the battle-ready mob is shrouded in a fog suggestive of tear gas or fires burning. Some are wearing gas masks, others wielding sticks. The poster's message seems to be a heady combination of sexuality, violence, excitement and adventure.
Former carpenter Robert Daros, 23, saw that poster in a cafe in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. Having lost his work as a carpenter after Florida's speculative construction boom collapsed in a heap of sub-prime mortgage foreclosures, he quit his job as a bartender and traveled to New York City with just a sleeping bag and the hope of joining the protest movement.
Daros was one of the first people to arrive on Wall Street for the so-called occupation on September 17, when protesters marched and tried to camp on Wall Street only to be driven off by police to Zuccotti Park - two acres of concrete without a blade of grass near the rising One World Trade Center.
"When I was a carpenter, I lost my job because the financier of my project was arrested for corporate fraud," said Daros, who was wearing a red arm band to show he was helping out in the medic section of the Occupy Wall Street camp.
Since its obscure beginnings, the campaign has drawn global media attention in places as far-flung as Iran and China. The Times of London, however, was not alone when it called the protests "Passionate but Pointless."
Adbusters' co-founder Lasn dismisses that, reeling off specific demands: a tax on the richest 1 percent, a tax on currency trades and a tax on all financial transactions.
"Down the road, there will be crystal clear demands coming out of this movement," he said. "But this first phase of the movement is messy and leaderless and demandless."
"I think it was perfect the way it happened." (Additional reporting by Cezary Podkul in New York and Cameron French in Toronto, writing by Mark Egan, editing by Claudia Parsons.)