dr. jim vs kjetil1234

[shortz]

http://www.mobilitywod.com/2012/08/people-weve-got-to-stop-icing-we-were-wrong-sooo-wrong/

Here

Regarding icing again:

"Let me quote Dr. Nick DiNubile, Editor in Chief of The Physician And Sports Medicine Journal (physsportsmed.com) “Seriously, do you honestly believe that your body’s natural inflammatory response is a mistake?”

Well what does the research and literature say?

Ohhh, that last link was to a Kelly Starret video. He's the be all end all guy for Crossfitters. He is the reason why crossfitters have misinterpreted the idea of icing.

This is a terrible, generalized statement that a majority of physicians, both sports medicine docs and PHD physical therapists, would disagree with. As stated earlier, not every response the body makes is the correct one. One of the MAJOR studies surrounding why icing shouldn't be done was performed on people that simply lifted weights to mimic an inflammatory response. They were then iced down, and the results were counter productive. The other was showing how the synovia cooled and how that MIGHT have an impact down the road, but was not definitive.

Do you even work in the medical field? What are your credentials? I am assuming no, because you would see just how ridiculously generalized something like this is. These new studies and findings are NOT based on long time evidence either. They are simply using the acute and short term findings and making a theory about the results. Are you just another copy pasts brah?

Until you get us some long term, peer reviewed studies that show, without a reasonable doubt, that not icing improves recovery, then you're simply arguing with opinions.

 

[kjetil1234]

Ohhh, that last link was to a Kelly Starret video. He's the be all end all guy for Crossfitters. He is the reason why crossfitters have misinterpreted the idea of icing.

This is a terrible, generalized statement that a majority of physicians, both sports medicine docs and PHD physical therapists, would disagree with. As stated earlier, not every response the body makes is the correct one. One of the MAJOR studies surrounding why icing shouldn't be done was performed on people that simply lifted weights to mimic an inflammatory response. They were then iced down, and the results were counter productive.

Do you even work in the medical field? What are your credentials? I am assuming no, because you would see just how ridiculously generalized something like this is. These new studies and findings are NOT based on long time evidence either. They are simply using the acute and short term findings and making a theory about the results.

Until you get us some long term, peer reviewed studies that show, without a reasonable doubt, that not icing improves recovery, then you're simply arguing with opinions.

I don't care about starrett, listen to the doctor he is interviewing. As he says, the ice slows the inflammation. "Do you think the body's natural inflammatory response is a mistake?" Good and relevant question.

I'm a personal trainer, as stated earlier.

Aren't we all arguing with opinions and common sense? As stated already in this thread, you can find supporting literature for almost anything. The baseline has to be rooted in common sense IMO.

 

[shortz]

Aren't we all arguing with opinions and common sense? .

No, icing is backed by years and years of peer reviewed, long term studies. Again, it is the standard of care. Please, don't be "That personal trainer". The one that follows the "cool trend" instead of the industry and medical standards. It will keep you out of hot water with legal issues, and it will better help your clients. Until your studies start to out number the ridiculous amounts of peer reviewed studies showing the effects of icing is good, then you will remain the minority.

This debate reminds me of all of the debates concerning vaccines. The data is just immense in defense of vaccines, yet people cling to one or two smaller studies that showed otherwise.

When the numbers start to change, the industry will follow, trust me. That is how the medical field works. Standards are based on research, but it uses the ones backed by the volume of peer reviewed studies making the case, in most situations. Until that changes, you aren't going to change the minds of 99% of the top physicians in the world.

 

[kjetil1234]

We will agree to disagree. I don't need to change any mind, I'll contribute what I have learned and you may do with it as you prefer.

Whether I recommend ice or not, or if I treat my clients with corrective exercises (which is my job) will obviously not get me in any legal issues.

I'm not following any trend just because I don't use ice.

 

[graniteman]

So what is this solution? please tell us... and tell me again why you cant prescribe medicine... never mind... In know... your not a doctor... your a masseuse... Dont get me wrong here.. I am not taking sides... I dont like big pharma any more than the next guy... but I know when i hurt... my NSAIDS sure do help... and somehow I heal just fine.

Exactly, if you're in pain why would you not take something to alleviate the pain? I guess he got He-man Gorilla balls, ''NSAIDS..I don' need no stinkin NSAIDS''.

GJ missing the point. Why would I want to prescribe medicine to something that is better cured with corrective exercises?

Keep taking your NSAIDS if you want (which usually won't address the CAUSE of this type of problem at all). All I'm doing is offering an alternative. if you're not interested, no one is forcing you to try it.

You kinda missed the whole moral of the story. Ok if you're in pain 1st thought.. Stop the pain...2nd thought ..Fix the pain. Why deal with the pain when you don't have to? Along your lines of thinking we should still be picking up rocks and putting them down instead of using round iron plates and eating raw meat instead of cooking it?
Cmon man, you have some decent stuff to offer but go back and read your reasoning, makes no logic

 

[kjetil1234]

Exactly, if you're in pain why would you not take something to alleviate the pain? I guess he got He-man Gorilla balls, ''NSAIDS..I don' need no stinkin NSAIDS''.



You kinda missed the whole moral of the story. Ok if you're in pain 1st thought.. Stop the pain...2nd thought ..Fix the pain. Why deal with the pain when you don't have to? Along your lines of thinking we should still be picking up rocks and putting them down instead of using round iron plates and eating raw meat instead of cooking it?
Cmon man, you have some decent stuff to offer but go back and read your reasoning, makes no logic

Because they **** up the first stages of healing... Of course it doesn't make sense when you're not thoroughly reading my posts man, I already wrote this a hundred times.

If your shoulder hurts, why push it until it's almost useless? What about stopping before that, and fixing the cause of pain? Won't have to use NSAIDS, ice, nothing.

Honestly this is getting no where, I'm not trying to convince any of you, I'm bringing my opinion to the table. If you don't agree, that's fine, don't use it.

 

[graniteman]

So what is this solution? please tell us... and tell me again why you cant prescribe medicine... never mind... In know... your not a doctor... your a masseuse... Dont get me wrong here.. I am not taking sides... I dont like big pharma any more than the next guy... but I know when i hurt... my NSAIDS sure do help... and somehow I heal just fine.

Because they **** up the first stages of healing... Of course it doesn't make sense when you're not thoroughly reading my posts man, I already wrote this a hundred times.

If your shoulder hurts, why push it until it's almost useless? What about stopping before that, and fixing the cause of pain? Won't have to use NSAIDS, ice, nothing.

Honestly this is getting no where, I'm not trying to convince any of you, I'm bringing my opinion to the table. If you don't agree, that's fine, don't use it.

I think you missed the whole part where I said it's being treated and I was wondering if this sleeve was worth the cash or another gimmick. I know exactly what works for this , I actually posted it but apparently you missed that? Lol ,relax K you can only post your op's you cant make anyone believe it

 

[Docd187123]

Because they **** up the first stages of healing... Of course it doesn't make sense when you're not thoroughly reading my posts man, I already wrote this a hundred times.

If your shoulder hurts, why push it until it's almost useless? What about stopping before that, and fixing the cause of pain? Won't have to use NSAIDS, ice, nothing.

Honestly this is getting no where, I'm not trying to convince any of you, I'm bringing my opinion to the table. If you don't agree, that's fine, don't use it.

I agree the inflammatory response is a necessary one to help healing processes but only so much inflammation is needed. Beyond that point as previously mentioned it becomes counter beneficial. At that point I think NSAID use is more than justified. You've stated you have had success with clients by using corrective exercises without NSAIDS....that's not a bad thing but that doesn't mean they don't serve a valuable purpose (to minimize too much inflammation).

The elite athlete, which many members on here would be considered, will sacrifice almost everything for their sport. Taking time off to do corrective exercises or heal will hinder their pursuit of the ultimate goal ie training to lift more weight or add more muscle mass and symmetry. I don't beleive corrective exercises to be a viable option for some people in this category as popping an NSAID or two here and there can allow them to keep progressing.

 

[kjetil1234]

I agree the inflammatory response is a necessary one to help healing processes but only so much inflammation is needed. Beyond that point as previously mentioned it becomes counter beneficial. At that point I think NSAID use is more than justified. You've stated you have had success with clients by using corrective exercises without NSAIDS....that's not a bad thing but that doesn't mean they don't serve a valuable purpose (to minimize too much inflammation).

The elite athlete, which many members on here would be considered, will sacrifice almost everything for their sport. Taking time off to do corrective exercises or heal will hinder their pursuit of the ultimate goal ie training to lift more weight or add more muscle mass and symmetry. I don't beleive corrective exercises to be a viable option for some people in this category as popping an NSAID or two here and there can allow them to keep progressing.

Yes, if the inflammation is excessive then I would agree that it may have a place, but why is it excessive? Usually it's a hormonal imbalance in the first place. Why not fix that instead of supping drugs?

Please explain what you mean by corrective exercises, and common causes of pain in sports injuries? I've read many MRI charts and the recommendation is often "nothing", as they can't figure out the problem. If an imbalance or inhibition is causing damage, why not address it?

Most of these don't require time off, you can do both and get healthy with minor modifications to the training program (depending on the injury). Obviously if there's a big injury and the client is popping NSAIDS to get rid of the symptoms, he'll inevitably meet a wall and get time off whether he likes it or not! Why let that happen when it so often is 100% preventable? I don't see how your point is valid at all, I am sorry!

 

[CBS]

Did I insult you in some way, did I hurt your feelings for moving a dr jim post? I must be not educated with 4 years of Pharmacy school (no I didn't finish but I think I learned enough in the 4 years) working in the Healthcare Industry for over 20 years dealing with Chairmen, CEO's, CFO's and a multitude of others. I understand every one of his copied articles, and there is a rebuttal for every one of them with another article stating the opposite.
If you don't like it here, simply go post somewhere else there are plenty of other boards. Do I need to run a deleted post log to prove something to you? Nope, because nothing was deleted. I don't know who you think you are, but coming here and insulting the mod team is not a good way to start.

Why on earth would you think you insulted me? Because I found you saying that you don't want a pissing match and then turning right around and using the insult du jour for Jim, "cutting and pasting," hypocritical?

Or was it because I stated my opinion about the inherent risks associated with moderators who force threads to remain on topic at the expense of debate and discussion?

Regardless, the answer is no. You did not insult me or hurt my feelings.

I am curious as to why you believe I've insulted "the mod team" for stating my opinion about what I've seen on this forum. I didn't accuse anyone of deleting posts - although I understand how someone could think that in the confusion that resulted when the OT was broken up and posts spread over two separate threads.

The point of my post was that when moderators enforce a strict on-topic policy, it stifles discussion. You want proof? Look at the OT that started this whole mess - it's only received 3 replies that specifically pertain to the OP's inquiry about Rogue sleeves. However, the thread you created, Dr. Jim vs Kettlebell (or whatever his name is), has resulted in a very productive discussion that still pertains to the OP's problem, albeit in a more general way. But it now benefits many more people, including the OP who is actively engaged in the conversation, because the topic has broadened. Shouldn't that be the point of a "discussion forum?" Would 30 or 40 replies saying "Rogue sleeves are great" or "Rogue sleeves suck" be more productive just because they're on-topic? Not to me and I suspect it wouldn't to anyone else, either.

My other point is the negative attitude that a few members on this forum have about backing your statements with evidence is just bizarre to me. I've never seen that attitude anywhere else. TID has some great and informative articles and posts, however if the authors fail to reference their work, it's useless to me. Maybe I'm an exception but I refuse to take anyone's word for something they cant support.

The bottom line is TID is a great forum with some great members. And Mugzy is the best. But that doesn't mean the forum couldn't be improved by relaxing a little bit and letting threads breathe. If you give them a chance, threads have a way of finding their own path and the results are often the most interesting, entertaining and informative discussions you'll find anywhere. And THAT will attract new members more than anything.

Regards

CBS

 

[BrotherIron]

.......I treat my clients with corrective exercises (which is my job) will obviously not get me in any legal issues.

If you're job has you utilizing corrective exercises to treat problems that athletes run into than perhaps you should make a thread about that. That would be a beneficial thread and possibly help many on here.

 

[dr jim]

Yes, if the inflammation is excessive then I would agree that it may have a place, but why is it excessive? Usually it's a hormonal imbalance in the first place. Why not fix that instead of supping drugs?

Please explain what you mean by corrective exercises, and common causes of pain in sports injuries? I've read many MRI charts and the recommendation is often "nothing", as they can't figure out the problem. If an imbalance or inhibition is causing damage, why not address it?

Most of these don't require time off, you can do both and get healthy with minor modifications to the training program (depending on the injury). Obviously if there's a big injury and the client is popping NSAIDS to get rid of the symptoms, he'll inevitably meet a wall and get time off whether he likes it or not! Why let that happen when it so often is 100% preventable? I don't see how your point is valid at all, I am sorry!

------
K would you for once cease all the double talk, mumbo jumbo, voodoo medicine nonsense and answer the questions others pose!

Tell us all what chiropractic therapies provide a better treatment than that which is currently being offered, such as RICE.?

Please tell us how we should better "align" our MS system. By having thrusting moves about the cervical spine, or those back cracking, heard around the world, maneuvers where success is declared when the unsuspecting victim says "I heard that one"?
Again the answer is NO. Your just being a naysayer because for many in the non-traditional medical field, negative publicity is better than NO PUBLICITY!

Oh yea what articles would you like for me to post? That one in 1986!, 1992! or 1994! all more than twenty years old yet enable the unwitting to believe your "suggestions" are applicable to contemporary medicine.

It seems the article in which NSAIDS "decreased healing" as determined by the measurement of inflammatory mediators is your favorite IMO.
Hey but did you even read the abstract? How about the "methods section"? I've no doubt the answer is no because this was a CELL CULTURE study where the cells were bathed in the NSAID at a concentration refused by even rats and fed all the other essential nutrients by micro-drip.

So let's here your alternatives for RICE K especially ANY evidence (please not from some lame blog of your choosing) on therapeutic "realignment".

Jim