Who is worse, Sanders or Clinton?

[tommyguns2]

So you allowed Trump to play you into believing this to be one of the forefront issues that need to be addressed? Don't misconstrue my words into thinking I'm saying this is a problem that doesn't need to be addressed bc I'm not saying that but it's pretty funny how Trump can play on the emotions and feelings of ppl and get them to "forget" about other real issues that need addressing.

This question is legitimate, so I'm not mad that you're asking it. I think immigration is a significant problem now, but will be a huge problem later, for a number of reasons. Some economic, some cultural, some political. What Trump effectively did was prevent the issue from being swept under the rug. I don't think he has a real plan to deal with it. But he got the conversation going, so I'll give him credit for that, but not for much else.

Economic reasons: the vast majority of those streaming across the border are low skill laborers. There may be a few PhD physicists sneaking over the border, but with all the reading I've done, that's not happening. With basic supply/demand principles, when you swell the supply of low skill labor, you depress wages for US citizens who are competing for these low skill jobs. With wage stagnation being an issue that both the Dems and Repubs have been barking about, they should look in the mirror and stop doing things that exacerbate this problem.

Cultural reasons: the immigrant groups are coming here primarily for work, and not to become Americans. (this is a generalization, but I think it's true). A good percentage of these illegals are here to make money and send that money back home to where their families are. These illegals have no incentive to assimilate, learn the language, etc. This is distinctly different from the immigrants that have been coming here for the past 150 years. Most immigrants have warm feelings about their homeland, and enjoy the language, traditions, food, music, etc. of the motherland, but they see themselves as Americans, not Greeks, Irish, Italians, etc. This lack of assimilation, coupled with multiculturalism which rejects American culture as being superior, is creating a balkanization in the US. Thus the US is no longer becoming a melting pot, but a patchwork of distinct, different cultures. This does not create a spirit of U.S. nationalism, and I believe that among the political elites this is intentional. You'll never be able to grow and strengthen International political institutions when the citizens of each country are fiercely nationalistic. The mass migration of people into Europe will destroy what it means to be French, or German, or Swede. I believe this is intentional. You can't have a United States of Europe when then the Germans want to be german, and the swedes want to be swede. If we want to do this, we ought to have a national conversation about it, rather than do it sneakily the way we are now.

Political: bringing in millions of illegals who will have children here creates millions of future citizens, and thus millions of future voters. At the moment, most believe that these future voters will be faithful democrats, as there parents are raising them on the full array of Social benefits. Food stamps, housing vouchers, Medicaid. These children will grow up looking to the gov't of the source of their provision, or at least partly, and will most likely vote in their personal interest. The Dems are counting on it. In 30 years, from a demographic point of view they may have a lock on political power in perpetuity. So the Dems are playing the long game here, IMO.

I may be wrong on this, but I don't think I am.

 

[MorganKane]

Someone brought up starting a trade war with Mexico? WTF! We've been in a trade war with them for years and years, if not decades. Only problem is that we've been on the losing end of the war.

Trump has said himself that he will continue to do trade with these countries, BUT, it has to be fair. Not one sided where we get fukked. What is wrong with that?

The only "trade war" with mexico has been over tomatos and sugarcane.

Take a look at the trade numbers over the last 10 years and show us the trade war.

 

[Docd187123]

This question is legitimate, so I'm not mad that you're asking it. I think immigration is a significant problem now, but will be a huge problem later, for a number of reasons. Some economic, some cultural, some political. What Trump effectively did was prevent the issue from being swept under the rug. I don't think he has a real plan to deal with it. But he got the conversation going, so I'll give him credit for that, but not for much else.

what Trunp did was turn our eye from more important issues that need addressing and playing on the emotions and gullibility of many Americans to garner support. Sure you can claim he prevented the issue from being swept under the carpet but he did it under selfish and self serving pretenses. The road to hell is paved with "good" intentions. Unfortunately now though, politicians will have to spend more time, money and resources debating this issue taking away that same time, money, and resources from dealing with more pressing issues.

Economic reasons: the vast majority of those streaming across the border are low skill laborers. There may be a few PhD physicists sneaking over the border, but with all the reading I've done, that's not happening. With basic supply/demand principles, when you swell the supply of low skill labor, you depress wages for US citizens who are competing for these low skill jobs. With wage stagnation being an issue that both the Dems and Repubs have been barking about, they should look in the mirror and stop doing things that exacerbate this problem.

i didn't realize illegal immigration ceases to be an issue if one is a PhD physicist but remains an issue if one is a low skilled worker.




You argue that the flow of illegal immigrants results in wage stagnation and depressed wages for US citizens but just before it you admit it's not physicists coming over only low skilled workers. When you go to your local McDonalds, Taco Bell, Burger King, Walmart, etc who do you see behind the counter or filling out employment applications? Is it your average US citizen? Do you see your average US citizen clamoring to fill out a Walmart application bc I sure as hell don't.




Or what about the fact that several studies, including a Colordao based research group study, that found that in that state, for every job taken by an illegal immigrant, they created 0.8 more jobs through economic activity?


Or or how about a recent study from economics professors from University of Virginia and University of Indianna at South Bend found that:


"Using US Census data from 1980 to 2000, we find considerable evidence for these effects: Each immigrant creates 1.2 local jobs for local workers, most of them going to native workers, and 62% of these jobs are in non-traded services. Immigrants appear to raise local non-tradeables sector wages and to attract native-born workers from elsewhere in the country. Additionally, wages increase in the services industries, while they do fall in the goods-creating jobs."


It seems like illegal immigration from the data does not exacerbate this problem or at the very least to the degree you believe it to. In the end it almost breaks even in that they're creating as many jobs as they take and bc of what's referred to as "the shot in the arm effect", wages can actually increase bc of illegal immigrants taking low skilled, low paying jobs. It seems like this might be a way to raise the minimum wage or income for some many people without resorting to bureaucratic mandates and laws artificially inflating the minimum wage.

Cultural reasons: the immigrant groups are coming here primarily for work, and not to become Americans. (this is a generalization, but I think it's true). A good percentage of these illegals are here to make money and send that money back home to where their families are. These illegals have no incentive to assimilate, learn the language, etc. This is distinctly different from the immigrants that have been coming here for the past 150 years. Most immigrants have warm feelings about their homeland, and enjoy the language, traditions, food, music, etc. of the motherland, but they see themselves as Americans, not Greeks, Irish, Italians, etc. This lack of assimilation, coupled with multiculturalism which rejects American culture as being superior, is creating a balkanization in the US. Thus the US is no longer becoming a melting pot, but a patchwork of distinct, different cultures. This does not create a spirit of U.S. nationalism, and I believe that among the political elites this is intentional. You'll never be able to grow and strengthen International political institutions when the citizens of each country are fiercely nationalistic. The mass migration of people into Europe will destroy what it means to be French, or German, or Swede. I believe this is intentional. You can't have a United States of Europe when then the Germans want to be german, and the swedes want to be swede. If we want to do this, we ought to have a national conversation about it, rather than do it sneakily the way we are now.

The legal immigrants who come here also send money back home. Do you care about them too or only the illegal immigrants who send money back home and why?


I didnt realize one had to see themselves as an American to be accepted into this country. When asked I tell people I am Lebanese bc that's where my parents emigrated from yet I was born in this country. Does that make me any less of an American citizen?


can you think of a possibly greater reason for lack of desire to assimilate by illegal immigrants? Could it be bc people like you try to tell them that American culture is superior to theirs? Do you forget history when a man by the name of Hitler tried saying one culture/race was superior to another? In case anyone forgot, ended with 60,000,000 men women and children losing their lives.


We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.


^^^ if all men are created equal and they are endowed certain unalienable rights by their creator that ensures them life liberty and the pursuit of happiness then who are we to tell them we are better than them?

Political: bringing in millions of illegals who will have children here creates millions of future citizens, and thus millions of future voters. At the moment, most believe that these future voters will be faithful democrats, as there parents are raising them on the full array of Social benefits. Food stamps, housing vouchers, Medicaid. These children will grow up looking to the gov't of the source of their provision, or at least partly, and will most likely vote in their personal interest. The Dems are counting on it. In 30 years, from a demographic point of view they may have a lock on political power in perpetuity. So the Dems are playing the long game here, IMO.




I may be wrong on this, but I don't think I am.

im glad you bring this part up, the economic cost of having illegals here. Let's take some actual numbers and put them in context.


Numerous us studies put the estimate of healthcare for illegal immigrants at anywhere from $6-10billion. Finding and incarcerating them costs about $1-2billion a year. Educating the children of illegal immigrants costs a whopping $17Billion a year. These are pretty big numbers but let's put them in context and show the other side of the equation.


The. $17billion spent on education happens to be only. 3.3% of the entire education budget. Not that much...


Lets take the state of Texas as an example. A Texas State Comptroller estimated that illegal immigrants poured in $17.7billion dollars into the gross state product. He also found that they added $424million MORE into state revenue than they took which includes education, healthcare, housin, etc. Isn't Texas one of the states plagued most by illegal immigration? It's funny how Texas seems to benefit from them no? Bc without them they'd have lost that $424million in revenue AS WELL AS losing 2.3% of the jobs in that state bc of the economic activity they create. But I thought they bleed the economy not help it?


How about in Arizona where an Immigration Policy Center report found that Arizona would lose out on $11.7billion in gross state product and lose out on 140,000 jobs if you deported all the illegal immigrants there.


How ow about a national study from 2015 that found that our national workforce would shrink by 11,000,000 jobs and the economy would shrink 6% or $1.6TRILLION if we deport all illegal immigrants?

Bottom line is do you think this should be a front and center issue when we have wounded vets coming home to a country that forgets about them, violent crime while trending downwards can still be reduced, we spend billions locking up non violent offenders to fill contractual quotas regarding minimum inmate populations in privatized prisons, we have mentally ill people falling through the system cracks and not getting the help they need, we have blatant corruption in politics that needs addressing, we have an educational system that needs revamping, we have a large portion of our population set to retire and have no financial plan to reduce the burden, we have a budget that no one seems to want to balance, and the list goes on and on and on.

 

[tommyguns2]

All men are created equal. All cultures are not created equal. I stand by that. Analogizing my comments to Hitler is a bit disingenuous.

American culture is better than Latin American culture. It has produced stable government institutions where people are ruled by laws, and not by men. That is why we don't have coups every 15-25 years, while many Latin American countries do. It's why immigrants seem to be leaving Latin America to come to the USA.

European culture is better than Middle Eastern culture and African culture, which are both primarily tribal in nature. I stand by that as well.

By controlling the amount of legal immigration, we're able to effectively assimilate the new people, who become part of the fabric of American culture. I stand by that as well.

The point I was making is the illegal immigration is not negatively affecting the market for highly skilled workers, such as PhD physicsts, engineers, computer scientists, etc. Rather, the illegal immigrants are primarily low skilled workers, and the US is not in great need of such labor, thus causing an oversupply and depressing wages for low skilled labor. I stand by that.

 

[tommyguns2]

All your other comments seem to be good arguments for increasing LEGAL immigration. That's the conversation we should have. But instead we're simply ignoring the laws on our books (we are not securing the border, I don't care what anyone says).

If we need to fix the guest worker program. Let's do that. I think there would be substantially more willingness to address such things once real effort has been made to secure the border. Until then, there simply is no trust, IMO.

 

[1bigun11]

Here is the hard question. If we agree there is no way in hell Mexico is going to pay for all of this wall building, and deporting, and border security enforcement, the question becomes how much is all of this going to cost, and are we going to raise taxes or increase the deficit to pay for it?

And don't say we are going to cut government waste or whatever to pay for it, because that is just an easy sell that never happens in reality.

Would anyone be willing to cut spending on Middle East wars and nation building in countries overseas who hate us, in order to spend it building Mexico's economy and securing borders in our own hemisphere?

 

[MorganKane]

All men are created equal. All cultures are not created equal. I stand by that. Analogizing my comments to Hitler is a bit disingenuous.

American culture is better than Latin American culture. It has produced stable government institutions where people are ruled by laws, and not by men. That is why we don't have coups every 15-25 years, while many Latin American countries do. It's why immigrants seem to be leaving Latin America to come to the USA.

European culture is better than Middle Eastern culture and African culture, which are both primarily tribal in nature. I stand by that as well.

By controlling the amount of legal immigration, we're able to effectively assimilate the new people, who become part of the fabric of American culture. I stand by that as well.

The point I was making is the illegal immigration is not negatively affecting the market for highly skilled workers, such as PhD physicsts, engineers, computer scientists, etc. Rather, the illegal immigrants are primarily low skilled workers, and the US is not in great need of such labor, thus causing an oversupply and depressing wages for low skilled labor. I stand by that.

Look at what happened in Alabama after several cities when after illegals hard.
They tried all kinds of labor including prison labor but farmers couldnt get their crops picked.
They had to "ignore" the new laws to survive. We can't even get prisoners to do the work of the immigrant.
We need immigrants to do those jobs. A guest worker program would do well with here.

 

[tommyguns2]

^^^ this is a reasonable question. Trump is full of it when he says Mexico is going to pay for the wall. They aren't going to pay for something that is not in their self-interest.

We raise the guest worker fees (slightly not a lot). This has the people who are benefitting from the program paying for the program. We jack up civil fines for companies residing in the US who hire undocumented workers and who hire workers with fake SS numbers. We hold these same companies responsible for lots of other things. They should know who they're hiring, and if they can't determine that, then they don't hire them.

This raises revenue, and creates less demand for illegal workers. As that demand dries up, the strong incentives for them to immigrate are reduced. Not to zero, but they are reduced. We look at the immigration budget, and we set priorities. If we have a fence, can we utilize our border patrol more effectively and reduce the number, saving money? I don't know, but it's an option. I move money from Homeland Security budget into immigration control/enforcement. After all, it's a national security issue if ISIS minded people can stroll across the border.

If we as a people determine this is important, then we allocate the resources for it, NOT increase the debt.

 

[tommyguns2]

Look at what happened in Alabama after several cities when after illegals hard.
They tried all kinds of labor including prison labor but farmers couldnt get their crops picked.
They had to "ignore" the new laws to survive. We can't even get prisoners to do the work of the immigrant.
We need immigrants to do those jobs. A guest worker program would do well with here.

That's the conversation we should be having, IMO. Until we secure the border, it's hard to tell what the number should be. Let the farmers of Alabama tell their state how many they need. If we need to increase/improve the guest worker program, let's do it. I'm for this.

 

[Docd187123]

All men are created equal. All cultures are not created equal. I stand by that. Analogizing my comments to Hitler is a bit disingenuous.

American culture is better than Latin American culture. It has produced stable government institutions where people are ruled by laws, and not by men. That is why we don't have coups every 15-25 years, while many Latin American countries do. It's why immigrants seem to be leaving Latin America to come to the USA.

European culture is better than Middle Eastern culture and African culture, which are both primarily tribal in nature. I stand by that as well.

By controlling the amount of legal immigration, we're able to effectively assimilate the new people, who become part of the fabric of American culture. I stand by that as well.

The point I was making is the illegal immigration is not negatively affecting the market for highly skilled workers, such as PhD physicsts, engineers, computer scientists, etc. Rather, the illegal immigrants are primarily low skilled workers, and the US is not in great need of such labor, thus causing an oversupply and depressing wages for low skilled labor. I stand by that.

that is called ethnocentricism and when you boil it down to it's roots it is a form of generalized prejudice.

Ironically you mention our culture is better than Latin America's cultures and this is why we see many immigrants from those countries but the State Department estimates US emigration at around 8-12million people and about 1/3 of OUR emigrants choose to reside in Latin American countries.....

its also worth noting that many Latin American immigrants who come here, according to you they do so partly bc our culture is "better" than theirs, end up going back to their original homeland. Is that then bc what they thought was a "better" culture turned out to be a "worse"'culture?

 

[Docd187123]

All your other comments seem to be good arguments for increasing LEGAL immigration. That's the conversation we should have. But instead we're simply ignoring the laws on our books (we are not securing the border, I don't care what anyone says).

If we need to fix the guest worker program. Let's do that. I think there would be substantially more willingness to address such things once real effort has been made to secure the border. Until then, there simply is no trust, IMO.

And do you honestly believe building a fence is going t secure the border? Enough so that it will justify it's cost?

 

[MR. BMJ]

Hillary for sure!