Which bulilds muscle better, dropsets or negatives?

[Littleguy]

Dropsets IMO time under tension crank it it til it won't crank no mo and then do it again.
Run the entire dumbell stack til you are straining like Richard Simmons with the 10 # ers

 

[Ogre717]

Dropsets IMO time under tension crank it it til it won't crank no mo and then do it again.
Run the entire dumbell stack til you are straining like Richard Simmons with the 10 # ers

THIS! When your done you shouldn't be able to take off your shirt. Hell you might need 2 hands to lift the water bottle.

 

[macgyver]

I hope people dont misunderstand my advice. My training too these days is much of it a lot lighter, TUT, and greater volume. BUT, I dont have much of any progress I am expecting at this point in my development. I also dont think I would have ever got to where I am at training the way I do now. But I can maintain my physique very easily doing all kinds of schizophrenic, directionless, "train by feel' training.

I am honest enough to know that any additional development much further than what I have now would be more a systemic response to anabolic compounds vs the signaling I was providing them. And once again, if I wanted to get the MOST growth I could that would have the best chance of lasting, I would turn back to simple principles of lifting as heavy as I could in the 3-12 rep range in a periodized fashion while eating an appropriate caloric surplus.

 

[JR Ewing]

I trained brutally, brutally hard in my late teens and well into my 20's. But I didn't build a whole lot of muscle or strength until I ironically stopped being so fanatical and cut back a bit on the intensity.

I also worked a job more or less full time in my early years that had me on my feet doing lots of manual labor for up to 8 hours a day, and was a full time college student. Once I got a desk job and no longer found myself spending 16-18 hours a day either working or in school / studying, I found it easier to build size and strength. Ditto for when I stopped partying so much on the weekends like I did during my college years, and when certain bad habits were remedied.

I also found that when I had to cut back somewhat on intensity due to some minor injuries I'd suffered that gains came easier. Sometimes we try too hard, we have too much going on in life, we don't get enough sleep, we have to reduce or eliminate certain vices, etc. Eat, lift, sleep, eat, relax, sleep, repeat.

I found that doing mainly the big basic compound exercises mostly with free weights works the best for me, and I've always found that no more than 4 days a week is also best for me. I quickly burn out on 5-6 day a week routines, and I have always found workouts that rarely go beyond an hour or so also work best.

 

[HDH]

I hope people dont misunderstand my advice. My training too these days is much of it a lot lighter, TUT, and greater volume. BUT, I dont have much of any progress I am expecting at this point in my development. I also dont think I would have ever got to where I am at training the way I do now. But I can maintain my physique very easily doing all kinds of schizophrenic, directionless, "train by feel' training.

I am honest enough to know that any additional development much further than what I have now would be more a systemic response to anabolic compounds vs the signaling I was providing them. And once again, if I wanted to get the MOST growth I could that would have the best chance of lasting, I would turn back to simple principles of lifting as heavy as I could in the 3-12 rep range in a periodized fashion while eating an appropriate caloric surplus.

That's too bad you feel that way about the way you train right now. You will never really know what the schizophrenic, directionless, "train by feel' training would do for you if you took an approach of growth instead of maintaining.

 

[macgyver]

That's too bad you feel that way about the way you train right now. You will never really know what the schizophrenic, directionless, "train by feel' training would do for you if you took an approach of growth instead of maintaining.

Long post, but open to serious opinions and advice as always.....

At 45 y.o. eating how I want, doing zero cardio, and most of the time only running trt @ 125/week, I dont think I am doing all that bad. This is not a 'pat myself on the back' post. By all means tell me if I am missing the boat or delusional jump in and let me know. I train alone, and dont have anyone around to 'set me straight'. Only guys I know much bigger than me, maintain a supplement regimen FAR greater and that is just not what I want. I dont ever want to go backwards. (I know as I age it is inevitable, but I have never run anything at a level that I ever lose a gain. I have never lost even a rep of a given weight on or off a cycle since I keep things very mild. ) The flip side, is I have never run enough to perceive a gain either in size or strength. But time and consistency at low levels has most certainly given me 6-10lbs over the last 6 years greater than I would have achieved totally naturally. (especially trying to stay lean as I have) I have only done what most would consider "beginner" cycles. I have been on TRT since 2012 after I figured out I had test levels below the bottom of the scale connected to a head injury in 09. After than I figured I could run a few bumps now and again, since recovering was not an issue.

Given that and the below, I am open to any advice from guys with experience.


I think I know enough of training and nutrition that I know it does not matter what I do at this point....I am not going to see much of anything OR any difference in how I train. I know I could improve strength, but I gave up training for power 3 years ago, but at 198 I was at a 1600 total @43 y.o. The threat of injury became all too real and it was not worth it to me. I am still relatively 'strong' even though I barely lift anything truly 'heavy'. EG, I took a full 2 years off deadlifting and in Jan, I decided to do deads again. By my 6th workout, I did 585x3. That is with 2 years of ZERO deads.

As for adding any real mass at this point, my last true effort was 3 years back. I calculated my intake and ate my programmed surplus. I was on 600mg of test and over 18 weeks I ate up to 235lbs.(5'9") I was not 'fat' but definitely brought my BF up quite a bit in the process. These are the pics after my last bulk.

After I dieted back down to a decent body fat level, I had gained ZERO weight. These are pics of me 12 weeks later, and 25lbs lighter. (first 10-12 lbs drop in 12 days from water shift, and a 1lb/week weight loss). I think I am 205/208 in these pics

Ebb and Flow for sure. I am going on 10 years back in the gym consistently. I dont think I have missed more than a few workouts in that time. I asked for some trusted opinions (some on here) and they basically said to get much more I would have to be willing to "take the training wheels off" so to speak. Bigger cycles...and be willing to deal with bigger sides.

The last 3 years, I have focused on learning how I can 'have my cake and eat it too'. I have worked to maintain a year round lean state and still keep my strength and size.

This summer, I decided I really wanted to go past just being a little lean and get AND stay at an even better place.
This was 2 weeks into dieting.

And here is where I am at a few weeks ago

I am serious. If I am just slacking and there is some magic program I can do to improve, I am ALL ears. I am always open to advice and would truly appreciate it. I am new to the 'game' but have almost 18 years of training experience. I dont think there is something I have not tried...but again, I would love to get some input.

FWIW, the last 3 years I have shelved 'heavy' training. Most I ever squat is 405 and I do that 'no handed' just for something interesting(srs). I will go up to 405 bent rows just to keep my back strong, but that is about it. Everything else is light TUT training. I dont think I have benched more than 225 in the past 3 years (and I only bench reverse grip now).


I am open to thoughts and advice for sure!

 

[HDH]

That was a long pat yourself on the back post.

It actually had nothing to do with what you quoted from me.

All I said was too bad you haven't tried the, and let me quote this once again "All kinds of schizophrenic, directionless, "train by feel' training."

I don't think you are seriously open to any advice because you are usually one sided about everything, your way is always the best and only way. Cool, your way has worked for you, and everyone that carries this physique has a different routine that got them there.

Point being, there is more than one way to do this.

Long post, but open to serious opinions and advice as always.....

At 45 y.o. eating how I want, doing zero cardio, and most of the time only running trt @ 125/week, I dont think I am doing all that bad. This is not a 'pat myself on the back' post. By all means tell me if I am missing the boat or delusional jump in and let me know. I train alone, and dont have anyone around to 'set me straight'. Only guys I know much bigger than me, maintain a supplement regimen FAR greater and that is just not what I want. I dont ever want to go backwards. (I know as I age it is inevitable, but I have never run anything at a level that I ever lose a gain. I have never lost even a rep of a given weight on or off a cycle since I keep things very mild. ) The flip side, is I have never run enough to perceive a gain either in size or strength. But time and consistency at low levels has most certainly given me 6-10lbs over the last 6 years greater than I would have achieved totally naturally. (especially trying to stay lean as I have) I have only done what most would consider "beginner" cycles. I have been on TRT since 2012 after I figured out I had test levels below the bottom of the scale connected to a head injury in 09. After than I figured I could run a few bumps now and again, since recovering was not an issue.

Given that and the below, I am open to any advice from guys with experience.


I think I know enough of training and nutrition that I know it does not matter what I do at this point....I am not going to see much of anything OR any difference in how I train. I know I could improve strength, but I gave up training for power 3 years ago, but at 198 I was at a 1600 total @43 y.o. The threat of injury became all too real and it was not worth it to me. I am still relatively 'strong' even though I barely lift anything truly 'heavy'. EG, I took a full 2 years off deadlifting and in Jan, I decided to do deads again. By my 6th workout, I did 585x3. That is with 2 years of ZERO deads.

As for adding any real mass at this point, my last true effort was 3 years back. I calculated my intake and ate my programmed surplus. I was on 600mg of test and over 18 weeks I ate up to 235lbs.(5'9") I was not 'fat' but definitely brought my BF up quite a bit in the process. These are the pics after my last bulk.

After I dieted back down to a decent body fat level, I had gained ZERO weight. These are pics of me 12 weeks later, and 25lbs lighter. (first 10-12 lbs drop in 12 days from water shift, and a 1lb/week weight loss). I think I am 205/208 in these pics

Ebb and Flow for sure. I am going on 10 years back in the gym consistently. I dont think I have missed more than a few workouts in that time. I asked for some trusted opinions (some on here) and they basically said to get much more I would have to be willing to "take the training wheels off" so to speak. Bigger cycles...and be willing to deal with bigger sides.

The last 3 years, I have focused on learning how I can 'have my cake and eat it too'. I have worked to maintain a year round lean state and still keep my strength and size.

This summer, I decided I really wanted to go past just being a little lean and get AND stay at an even better place.
This was 2 weeks into dieting.

And here is where I am at a few weeks ago

I am serious. If I am just slacking and there is some magic program I can do to improve, I am ALL ears. I am always open to advice and would truly appreciate it. I am new to the 'game' but have almost 18 years of training experience. I dont think there is something I have not tried...but again, I would love to get some input.

FWIW, the last 3 years I have shelved 'heavy' training. Most I ever squat is 405 and I do that 'no handed' just for something interesting(srs). I will go up to 405 bent rows just to keep my back strong, but that is about it. Everything else is light TUT training. I dont think I have benched more than 225 in the past 3 years (and I only bench reverse grip now).


I am open to thoughts and advice for sure!

 

[macgyver]

That was a long pat yourself on the back post.

It actually had nothing to do with what you quoted from me.

..................

I don't think you are seriously open to any advice because you are usually one sided about everything, your way is always the best and only way. Cool, your way has worked for you, and everyone that carries this physique has a different routine that got them there.

Hey man....you have me all wrong. I was sincere in what I posted. I am totally open to advise as I have only gotten to where I got to in part by the help and guidance of others along the way.

 

[HisAngriness]

We're not stopping there are we? This was just getting good.
Anyhow, I'd have to agree with everybody that said compound lifts and short, intense workouts will give you the best bang for your buck.
I have personally tried drop sets, negatives, supersets, strength training, hypertrophy training, high reps, low reps, etc... and in the end I made my best gains by sticking with simple compounds lifts, between 45 mins to an hour at the gym, and only 3x a week. That's me personally.
That being said, I have also found hypertrophy training to be the best way to MAINTAIN any gains I have made. Plus it gives my CNS a break from heavy lifting year round. This is where the negatives and drop sets come in to play. If I had to choose which is more effective between those two methods then I would probably lean toward drop sets

 

[Bigtex]

Thank you for your answer, and you are right, muscle confusion is a very basic principle, I am simply trying to find ways that confuse muscles even if I do the same thing over and over again.
To be honest, I personally dislike Weider's Principles being treated like godly commandments forever. I respect them a lot as they gave the foundation of modern bodybuilding, and most of them still apply, but also a lot of them have been proven obsolete, or at least not fundamental.
What I am striving to achieve now is stretching the limits of simplicity into variety.

I understand you don't like the Weider Principles being treated like commandments but the do apply to modern weight training, especially bodybuilding. Most have been studied by current research and have been very much validated.

As we know the bodybuilder has the use of a lot of tools to get big. Variation in the different aspects of weight training, confuse the muscle and avoid reaching the steady state or homeostasis. By changing things like modalities, reps, sets, speed, intensity, angle, rest periods, etc you can force the body to keep adapting, thus increasing the rate of hypertrophy. This was observed by Joe Weider over 50 years ago and has never changed. He didn't invent anything, just observed how the pros were training.

In fact, muscle confusion or variation of exercise has been validate by several research studies recently. A study conducted by researchers at the Tempe campus of Arizona State University compared two groups of trained subjects, one using an undulating periodization program—a fancy term for muscle confusion—and the other with a linear periodization program. In the undulating program, the acute variables were changed with every workout, whereas in the linear program, they were changed every few weeks. After 12 weeks, people following the undulating periodization program increased their bench press and leg press strength by 100 percent more than those following the linear program. Undulating periodization is nothing more that a program that uses as many of the variations as I mentioned above rotating on a 2-3 week basis. Louie Simmons uses a system like this in his WS programs.

Researchers from Brazil saw even more drastic differences when they had trained subjects follow one of three programs: an undulating periodization program, a linear periodization program, or a consistent non-periodized program of 8-10 reps per set. The training program consisted of a two-day split with 3-4 total training days per week. After 12 weeks, the group following the muscle confusion program increased its bench press by about 60 pounds, almost 200 percent more than both the linear periodization program and the non-periodized program. The undulating program also increased the subjects' strength on the leg press by a staggering 275 pounds, 400 percent more than the non-periodized program and more than 300 percent more than the linear program.

This principle can apply to muscle growth as well as strength. Researchers from the Federal University of Rio De Janeiro had a group of untrained men follow a linear periodization program of two sets of 12-15 reps per exercise for four weeks, then three sets of 8-10 reps per exercises for four weeks, and finally four sets of 3-5 reps per exercise for the final four weeks. Meanwhile, a group used those same set and rep ranges but cycled them each time they trained. The results: The group following the undulating plan increased its triceps size by about five percent, while the linear group saw no such increase. The undulating group also increased its biceps size by 10 percent—twice that of the linear group.

Now drop sets are part of the Weider observations and part of a variation of exercise. So are negatives (retro-gravity). Negatives are usually done with 10-20% over your max concentrating on the negative movement. This is well document by science to increase hypertrophy. However, because of the stress it places on the muscle fibers and connective tissue, they should not be done frequently. Drop sets are just another tool in the tool box. in fact these too have been validated by science. The challenge with dropsets is finding the ideal amount of weight to reduce for the dropset. Research performed by the Weider Research Group looked into this question. They had 10 trained bodybuilders perform dropsets by dropping 10, 20, 30, or 40 percent of their 10 rep max weight after reaching failure on one set of incline dumbbell flyes, dumbbell lateral raises, lat pull-downs, dumbbell biceps curls, triceps press-downs, leg extensions, and leg curls. For most of the exercises tested, a drop of 20-30 percent resulted in the subjects being able to complete about 10 reps.

So after all of this.......I would suggest negatives about 1 time a month and drop sets more frequently. You can also do peak contractions....holding the peak at the end of a rep, rest pauses, compound sets, super sets, tri-sets, giant sets, partials just to name a few. Frequently change the speed you train at both concentric and eccentric, rest periods, angles and modalities. You can also change periodically from low volume high intensity to high volume lower intensity. Cables, machines, free weight, machines. rubber bands etc can also be rotated.

 

[Bigtex]

Not sure why I keep duplicating postings

 

[Bigtex]

Another one?