Thyroid Questions - affecting fatloss

[dr jim]

Well I'm actually prepping for a show and am stuck at 8.5-9%. I am eating at a deficit but it seems to only be adding to the lethargy. So you are being treated for hypo with t3?

I will tell you this, thyroid supplementation is "needed" (based on lab studies AND symptoms of hypothyroidism) in patients using HIGH doses of GH for growth retardation, somewhere in the neighborhood of ONE to TWO percent of the time!

Moreover the chronic administration of thyroxine in EUTHYROID patients is clearly associated with atrial arrhythmias including A-Fib, CHF, and persistent thyroid dysfunction.

What am I suggesting? The administration of T-3/T-4 is NOT indicated on the basis of GH use alone. In fact some BB probably do more harm than good, IME

What ya think happens to endogenous T-3/T-4 production when "GH supplementation" is instituted! It decreases, because TSH secretion decreases also. Now doesn't that feedback mechanism sound familiar!! (TT/LH-FSH)

Jim

 

[gotclen]

What does your cardio program look like? Trust me when I get down to 4,5,6% I'm hitting the wall. The lower I squeeze down too the more wacked I get. I can sleep anywhere any time. For the most part we are starving ourselves. I get so depleted i'm running on fumes, So, who knows what you situation really is. Are you have any refeed days?

Well I'm actually prepping for a show and am stuck at 8.5-9%. I am eating at a deficit but it seems to only be adding to the lethargy. So you are being treated for hypo with t3?

 

[macgyver]

Well I'm actually prepping for a show and am stuck at 8.5-9%. I am eating at a deficit but it seems to only be adding to the lethargy. So you are being treated for hypo with t3?

Gotcha....that is why I asked. Not sure how low thyroid will impact you getting to contest levels.

My doc prescribed 25mg of T3 for my hypo. Seems to be helping with fatigue issue I have experienced. I stay reasonably lean year round. 9-12% range. Was not always this way, but learned to control my intake about 4 years back. Only recently started T3 as I wanted to get 'settled in' on TRT which actually helped improve my thyroid some but not enough. All this goes back to a head injury 5 years ago. Found out 2 years ago my hormones had gone to crap after I could not explain terrible fatigue I was experiencing.


Good luck on continued fat loss. I am a big fan of EC-Y but you have to be very careful with it. SHINE posted a great article on it back some. Really worked awesome for me.

 

[Rockshawn]

I will tell you this, thyroid supplementation is "needed" (based on lab studies AND symptoms of hypothyroidism) in patients using HIGH doses of GH for growth retardation, somewhere in the neighborhood of ONE to TWO percent of the time!

Moreover the chronic administration of thyroxine in EUTHYROID patients is clearly associated with atrial arrhythmias including A-Fib, CHF, and persistent thyroid dysfunction.

What am I suggesting? The administration of T-3/T-4 is NOT indicated on the basis of GH use alone. In fact some BB probably do more harm than good, IME

What ya think happens to endogenous T-3/T-4 production when "GH supplementation" is instituted! It decreases, because TSH secretion decreases also. Now doesn't that feedback mechanism sound familiar!! (TT/LH-FSH)

Jim

Right Jim and the other problem is suppressed HPT feedback. There are apparently may ways to come at thyroid issues as I'm learning. The causes of hypothyroidism range from high testosterone or high estrogen to unstable blood sugar. I read a good ebook last night that I'll add to the library here when I can. I think my main mode of attack right now is boosting immune system and eliminating high estro as possibilities. Also learned Vitamin D plays a role in thyroid health as well.

What does your cardio program look like? Trust me when I get down to 4,5,6% I'm hitting the wall. The lower I squeeze down too the more wacked I get. I can sleep anywhere any time. For the most part we are starving ourselves. I get so depleted i'm running on fumes, So, who knows what you situation really is. Are you have any refeed days?

I'm not really carb restricted. Diet is 60/30/18 and cardio is a fasted quick walk in the AM of 30min. I was keto for 5 weeks at the start of prep with Sunday refeeds, but we switched it up to include carbs cause I was having to back off my show date due to feeling like total crap. I may miss this season all together, regroup and heal up and do it again next year.

Gotcha....that is why I asked. Not sure how low thyroid will impact you getting to contest levels.

My doc prescribed 25mg of T3 for my hypo. Seems to be helping with fatigue issue I have experienced. I stay reasonably lean year round. 9-12% range. Was not always this way, but learned to control my intake about 4 years back. Only recently started T3 as I wanted to get 'settled in' on TRT which actually helped improve my thyroid some but not enough. All this goes back to a head injury 5 years ago. Found out 2 years ago my hormones had gone to crap after I could not explain terrible fatigue I was experiencing.


Good luck on continued fat loss. I am a big fan of EC-Y but you have to be very careful with it. SHINE posted a great article on it back some. Really worked awesome for me.

Thank you, I do typically do a ECA or EC-Y stack closer to show time, It definitely will help with energy right now. I'm thinking t3/clen is out of the question for this prep. LOL

 

[dr jim]

Right Jim and the other problem is suppressed HPT feedback

Importantly the use of rHGH, especially at HIGH DOSES, appears to be associated with a greater risk of developing suppressed T-3/T-4 levels in some folk. (Primarily because peripheral utilization and T3/T4 conversion are increased) However providing the patient was euthryoid from the outset, the lowered thyroxine level eventually returns to baseline because it's very presence induces TSH secretion.

This feedback loop corrects the initial deficit created by GH supplementation. But whats even more important, supplementing thyroid production during the "initial interval" (2-3 months) of GH use nullifies this natural physiological feedback, which may morph into unnecessary long term thyroxine therapy, and THAT AIN'T GOOD!

I would strongly suggest mates whom are using genuine Pharm grade GH at "anabolic" doses obtain baseline thyroid function studies. These TFT should be repeated every "few" months until rHGH dosing is stabilized and once or twice a year thereafter. (An interval of 2-3 months may be required for TSH to normalize T3/T4 endogenous levels).

Regs
Jim

 

[woodswise]

Dr Jim:

So should we not supplement with T/3 and let our bodies adjust naturally if they will? And what about when using AAS? Same advice? I have been supplementing T3 for a few weeks on my current cut and when I added Clen, my weightloss picked up quite a bit. I'll continue the Clen t/3 for another two weeks then come off when I bulk. That will have me on T/3 for about five or six weeks total. Do you think I am risking permanent damage?

Thanks.

Ww.

 

[Rockshawn]

Importantly the use of rHGH, especially at HIGH DOSES, appears to be associated with a greater risk of developing suppressed T-3/T-4 levels in some folk. (Primarily because peripheral utilization and T3/T4 conversion are increased) However providing the patient was euthryoid from the outset, the lowered thyroxine level eventually returns to baseline because it's very presence induces TSH secretion.

This feedback loop corrects the initial deficit created by GH supplementation. But whats even more important, supplementing thyroid production during the "initial interval" (2-3 months) of GH use nullifies this natural physiological feedback, which may morph into unnecessary long term thyroxine therapy, and THAT AIN'T GOOD!

I would strongly suggest mates whom are using genuine Pharm grade GH at "anabolic" doses obtain baseline thyroid function studies. These TFT should be repeated every "few" months until rHGH dosing is stabilized and once or twice a year thereafter. (An interval of 2-3 months may be required for TSH to normalize T3/T4 endogenous levels).

Regs
Jim

Totally see this now Jim. When I started to take 4 and 6iu of pharma hGH My blood work showed very high t3 conversion but suppressed t4 and low TSH levels. The broscience decision was to add t4 and that's when I started reading up on supplementing t4 with rhGH at anabolic doses. However, our brosciance dose was 200mcg ED - and if my peptides where underdosed I may have still been using 150mcg.

Jim at this point, I've been off all supplemental t4 for more than 3 months and no longer take rhGH. My t4 levels are very low and my TSH is low while my t3 uptake is still high (over Range) Below are my numbers.

TSH 1.980 (range=0.450-4.500 uIU/mL DA)
Thyroxine (T4) 6.3 (range=4.5-12.0 ug/dL DA)
T3 Uptake 46 HIGH (range=24-39 % DA)
Free Thyroxine Index 2.9 (range=1.2-4.9 DA)

What can be done to correct this at this point? Is boosting the immune system enough? Should I look at OTC thyroid supps like pig thyroid? Any Advise to help me out of this slump would be much appreciated.

 

[Rockshawn]

bump for last question

 

[CBS]

Dr Jim:

So should we not supplement with T/3 and let our bodies adjust naturally if they will? And what about when using AAS? Same advice? I have been supplementing T3 for a few weeks on my current cut and when I added Clen, my weightloss picked up quite a bit. I'll continue the Clen t/3 for another two weeks then come off when I bulk. That will have me on T/3 for about five or six weeks total. Do you think I am risking permanent damage?

Thanks.

Ww.

Mild hyperthyroidism for only 5 or 6 weeks is highly unlikely to result in any permanent harm. I suppose there's a greater risk for arrhythmias when using T3 together with Clen but that risk won't be permanent.

Totally see this now Jim. When I started to take 4 and 6iu of pharma hGH My blood work showed very high t3 conversion but suppressed t4 and low TSH levels. The broscience decision was to add t4 and that's when I started reading up on supplementing t4 with rhGH at anabolic doses. However, our brosciance dose was 200mcg ED - and if my peptides where underdosed I may have still been using 150mcg.

Jim at this point, I've been off all supplemental t4 for more than 3 months and no longer take rhGH. My t4 levels are very low and my TSH is low while my t3 uptake is still high (over Range) Below are my numbers.

TSH 1.980 (range=0.450-4.500 uIU/mL DA)
Thyroxine (T4) 6.3 (range=4.5-12.0 ug/dL DA)
T3 Uptake 46 HIGH (range=24-39 % DA)
Free Thyroxine Index 2.9 (range=1.2-4.9 DA)

What can be done to correct this at this point? Is boosting the immune system enough? Should I look at OTC thyroid supps like pig thyroid? Any Advise to help me out of this slump would be much appreciated.

Who ordered these labs? T3U and FTI are antiquated tests that have been supplanted by FT4 and FT3 assays.

FTI is/was used as an indirect measure of FT4 and is determined by multiplying TT4 (Total T4) x T3U.

In your case: TT4 6.3 ug/dL x T3U .46 % = FTI 2.9

Regardless, there's no real problem here. Your TSH, FTI and TT4 are within normal range. T3U is a measure of thyroid-binding globulin and has nothing to do with T3. Yours could be high from androgen use as androgens can lead to an increase in T3U.

TT4 is unreliable in the presence of abnormal thyroid hormone-binding proteins so if you want to be absolutely sure, you could check FT4 and maybe even FT3 but based on the labs you have, I wouldn't expect any significant differences.

Regards

CBS

 

[dr jim]

Mild hyperthyroidism for only 5 or 6 weeks is highly unlikely to result in any permanent harm. I suppose there's a greater risk for arrhythmias when using T3 together with Clen but that risk won't be permanent.







Who ordered these labs? T3U and FTI are antiquated tests that have been supplanted by FT4 and FT3 assays.

FTI is/was used as an indirect measure of FT4 and is determined by multiplying TT4 (Total T4) x T3U.

In your case: TT4 6.3 ug/dL x T3U .46 % = FTI 2.9

Regardless, there's no real problem here. Your TSH, FTI and TT4 are within normal range. T3U is a measure of thyroid-binding globulin and has nothing to do with T3. Yours could be high from androgen use as androgens can lead to an increase in T3U.

TT4 is unreliable in the presence of abnormal thyroid hormone-binding proteins so if you want to be absolutely sure, you could check FT4 and maybe even FT3 but based on the labs you have, I wouldn't expect any significant differences.

Regards

CBS

Excellent explanation CBS, and for what it's worth, I agree on all points.
Regards
Jiim

 

[Rockshawn]

Mild hyperthyroidism for only 5 or 6 weeks is highly unlikely to result in any permanent harm. I suppose there's a greater risk for arrhythmias when using T3 together with Clen but that risk won't be permanent.








Who ordered these labs? T3U and FTI are antiquated tests that have been supplanted by FT4 and FT3 assays.

FTI is/was used as an indirect measure of FT4 and is determined by multiplying TT4 (Total T4) x T3U.

In your case: TT4 6.3 ug/dL x T3U .46 % = FTI 2.9

Regardless, there's no real problem here. Your TSH, FTI and TT4 are within normal range. T3U is a measure of thyroid-binding globulin and has nothing to do with T3. Yours could be high from androgen use as androgens can lead to an increase in T3U.

TT4 is unreliable in the presence of abnormal thyroid hormone-binding proteins so if you want to be absolutely sure, you could check FT4 and maybe even FT3 but based on the labs you have, I wouldn't expect any significant differences.

Regards

CBS

Thanks CBS, I actually ordered the labs from privatemdlabs they are part of the male Hormone panel. I didn't know about the other options. I did have a GP here pull labs on me and he said the same thing, that the level are in range and no need to worry about the thyroid anymore. The only reason I was ever worried was because of the same GP telling me the thyroid was enlarged and wanted to check it more and ordered a Sono

This is exactly what I was looking for. Wanted to eliminate the thyroid as the problem or Address it if it was the problem. Sounds like I need to address other aspects to figure out the lethargy. or maybe I'm just lazy. LOL