So....when did macros stop being important?

[rawdeal]

Don't Generals call this "a strategic withdrawal?"

As a veteran I can assure you the proper terminology for this is “being a little bitch”.

Settle down, SAD ... only veterinarians speak of little bitches.

 

[IronInsanity]

I spent 4+ years literally preparing, weighing and trying all kinds of different intakes. What I realized is that cals are king. And fat loss is NOT about cutting sugar or 'bad' foods. It is about eating less.

Took you 4 years to figure that out?!

 

[Bigtex]

So you are saying the way I've always dropped weight is physically impossible? lol Calories do not determine whether I gain or lose, macros do. I'm not alone in this either. 2,500 calories mostly carbs I got fat, over 3,800 from mostly fat and protein I got lean. 800 calories per day of 100% carbs again I got fat. Gotta love the "science". There use to be a chart at my gym that had weight = the amount of calories you MUST be taking in per day. I was around 210 at that time and the little chart said I HAD to be taking in at least 3,200 calories per day. At that point I had not gone over 1,800 in about 4 months.

I agree with you, those kind of charts are worthless and only meant as a general guidline. Because we are all individual, no two people use the same amount of calories at rest. I am 65 years old and need 4500 kcals/d just to keep my body weight (not talking abour macros yet). To gain I need around 5000 kcals. I eat more food than most people my age eat in 3 days. The law of indivisuality! I hesitate to get involved in discussions on nutrition because it usually is like a religion to some and I don't want to insult anyone. But I will dive right in and hopefully just present the facts as they are.

I have not seen any of the advice that was given on UTube about calories. But I am guessing what they mean when they talk about calories is it being a unit of measurement. Basically a calorie (kilocalory) is the energy needed to raise the temperature of 1 gram of water through 1 °C . So determine the amount of energy in a given amount of food. So a known amount of food, which has had its water content evaporated, is placed in a container surrounded by a known amount of water. The container (clolorimeter) was sealed, oxygen piped in, and the food ignited. From the rise in temperature of the water, the calorie content of the food was calculated. So the calories we consume have nothing to do with the amount of energy we need to digest and assimilate the food.

Today, food producers use the “Atwater indirect system” to calculate calories by adding up the calories provided by the energy-containing nutrients: protein, carbohydrate, fat and alcohol. The Atwater system uses the average values of 4 Kcal/g for protein, 4 Kcal/g for carbohydrate, 9 Kcal/g for fat and 7 Kcal/g for alcohol that were determined by burning these substances in a calorimeter.

Energy needs

• Basal Metabolism Rate – the amount of energy the body requires just to live. VERY INDIVIDUAL
• Needs for activity/exercise – all energy used above BMR
• Thermic Effect of Food (TEF) - the energy required for digestion, absorption, and disposal of ingested nutrients. Carbohydrates - 5 to 15% of the energy consumed, protein - 20 to 35%, and fats - at 5 to 15%.

So the TEF is where you are absolutely right, its not just about calories, and macros are very important. High protein intakes cause us to burn more energy and also make it harder to store as fat. As you see carbohydrates and fat don’t require near as much energy to digest and assimilate and store much easier to store as adipose. How about this........ if you have 250kcal in donut and 250kcals in a T-bone steak. They are not going to react the same in the human body (TEF), however the energy produced in a calorimeter is equal. Nutrient composition are quite differnet as wel,l as is the energy the body uses to digest and assimilate the nutrients. So saying macros don't matter is incorrect, but saying the amount of energy (kcals) we take in indivifually does not matter is also incorrect.
.

 

[charger69]

Been following an IF protocol for over 2 1/2 years now. In past 2 years I have only 3 times eaten before 1pm. Most of my first meals at 230-300 pm

Recently I have experimented with a new dieting technique which is based around a "INTERMITTENT" psmf.

Too early for details, but I am thinking I can do a traditional week of dieting with a few days a week of PSMF protocol. Dont want to speak about it too much before I have had a chance to try it for a while.

But I am nervous on several levels since I have worked many years to get the mass I now carry. I would be less nervous with high anabolic supplementation, but I want to see if I can hold the muscle without being overly reliant on outside anabolics. For my goals and age, I dont like to us aas as a crutch and want to keep any aas use to the least that I can.

My ignorant self says that it is too restrictive and limits muscle growth with the lack of carbs. That’s about all I know and wanted to know at the time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[macgyver]

My ignorant self says that it is too restrictive and limits muscle growth with the lack of carbs. That’s about all I know and wanted to know at the time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I would not practice IF for a mass gaining diet. It would be very challenging and I dont see it as being ideal or practical.

"Eat for your goals" is the best advice I can give. I no longer try to gain mass. I dont think I could ever get any bigger than I am without being reliant on exogenous hormones not only to build it, but to retain it also. My goals have always been to never lose size or strength. My aas use has been such that I have never pushed it to a point where I could not maintain my size or strength on normal hormone levels. In fact, I have never used to a point where I could actually notice size or strength gains....but they have come over time for sure. I am a slow and steady wins the race kind of guy. No short term goals here.

So IF is perfect for me. I no longer 'eat up' or 'eat down'. I just eat to stay the same. When I get off track, I pull back a little. Before IF, my appetite was as such that I would always equalize at a point of being overweight. I have never been a lean person.

IF has broken my addiction with food. I am no longer a slave to eating. And I eat whatever the hell I want....and lots of it. I go through a tub of icecream a week. I eat pizza every friday. I eat fried chicken a few times a week.

Below is my lunch from wed. I ordered the lunch nachos as a appetizer AND ordered the fish fry.
Yes...I really do eat like this daily. IF is great!

 

[thegodofwisdom666]

I like to use the mirror if it looks like I’m getting fat which never happens I adjust cardio . I learned long ago to take off the fat before getting in shape . Once the fat is off then u can concentrate on building good lean muscle

Frank Zane said he always took pictures to see his progress and how different workouts and diets effected his physique

 

[thegodofwisdom666]

So you are saying the way I've always dropped weight is physically impossible? lol Calories do not determine whether I gain or lose, macros do. I'm not alone in this either. 2,500 calories mostly carbs I got fat, over 3,800 from mostly fat and protein I got lean. 800 calories per day of 100% carbs again I got fat. Gotta love the "science". There use to be a chart at my gym that had weight = the amount of calories you MUST be taking in per day. I was around 210 at that time and the little chart said I HAD to be taking in at least 3,200 calories per day. At that point I had not gone over 1,800 in about 4 months.

I agree with you, but some people can it carbs and and stay lean I along with you am not one of them.
For every gram of carbs you eat your body connect's 2.5 grams of water to so if you or I eat a pound of carbs we gain 3.5 pounds.
However people like Michael Phillips the olympic swimmer at 10,000 calories a day mostly carbs and still had more abs than I could count so training comes into play along with genetics.

 

[gunslinger]

I agree with you, but some people can it carbs and and stay lean I along with you am not one of them.
For every gram of carbs you eat your body connect's 2.5 grams of water to so if you or I eat a pound of carbs we gain 3.5 pounds.
However people like Michael Phillips the olympic swimmer at 10,000 calories a day mostly carbs and still had more abs than I could count so training comes into play along with genetics.

This is exactly it! I can eat a cup of rice and watch myself gain 3-5 pounds of water overnight. God help me if I eat a fucking donut. Yet you have these assholes who are genetically blessed who can eat whatever they want throwing around this calorie = calorie bullshit with no regard for the people like us who that absolutely doesn't work for. I have two daughters. One can eat one small salad per day and her weight almost never goes below 200 pounds. My other daughter has a 6 pack and lives off ramen and taco bell. Its not the same for everyone. During a 6 week covid lockdown last march I couldn't work out or do Jiu-jitsu and for about 4 of those 6 weeks I ate whatever. My calories rarely went over 2,500 per day and I gained 33 pounds 6 weeks. What was I eating? Normal ppl shit. Pizza, burgers, cookies, potatoes, rice etc. But the resident "experts" here will say thats just impossible. Laws of thermodynamics and all that shit.

Look fucksticks, I know what my body does when I eat certain things. I been doing this shit for 30 years and watching people who know a hell of a lot more about it do it for more than that and they seem to agree with me.

 

[Bigtex]

I did a dietary analysis of Phil Heaths diet for a day. Let's see what kind of macronutrients this guy take in.

Phil's body weight is - - 280 lbs and he consumes 33kcal/lb, in the protein department Phil consumes 3.25g/lb/bw. Why would a professional BB eat so much protein? Needs are certainly high but I guess he understands the thermic effect of food and has seen how much protein increases his metabolism.

So back to Phil's energy needs, athletes always understand that the more active they are the higher the need for energy. Otherwise we would never have professional bodybuilders at 290lbs on stage. So Phil eats 9394 kcal/d split up in 7 meals. Macronutrient wise Phil take in 910g of protein, a whopping 881g of carbs and 239 g of fat. The protein provides 3640 kcals of energy, the 3524 kcals of energy, and the fat provides 2151 kcals. Unfortunately for those who don't believe in calories, the nutrients are also used in the body to provide the ATP used to produce muscular contrations. Without calories, the body would absolutely shut down because calories = energy.

Now the strange thing about muscle (Fast twitch) is they are very glycogen dependent. In fact, if we don't have enough carbohydrates in the body to provide the energy we need to produce ATP for energy in the glycotic energy cycle, the muscles just shut down and don't function.

So let's break down Phils diet by the meal and see if Phil thinks calories/energy is of no importance and he relies only on macronutrients..

Meal 1​

8 egg whites​

8 oz top sirloin steak​

Lawry’s Steak Rub seasoning​

1 1/2 cups oatmeal​

1 serving Vitakic​

300 mg​

500 mg vitamin C​

500 mg fish oil​

 

[Bigtex]

OK let's start this one over....

 

[gunslinger]

OK let's start this one over....

Ok lets start over. Up front Lets go ahead and say that Phil is likely taking massive quantities of steroids, GH, IGF, insulin, and diuretics. That being said, according to the "experts" here he could be eating fried chicken and donuts and attain the same results. So why does Phil eat this way?

I guess he understands the thermic effect of food and has seen how much protein increases his metabolism.

And this is why. Phil understand that regardless of calories his body reacts to certain foods differently than others. ie 300 grams of carbs does something totally different than 300 grams of protein in his body. Therefore a calorie does not equal a calorie. Or you could say Macros matter!!! This is exactly what I've been saying this whole time. Pro bodybuilders understand this, and so does anyone with common sense. Also if we go the calorie is a calorie rout phil taking in 9394 he should be able to maintain his body weight taking in 3,466 calories per day. With his cuttent calories shouldn't he be like 500 pounds or more?

As for carbs there is a huge difference between fibrous carbs and starches. You do not "need" starches. Your muscles will work just fine without them.

 

[Bigtex]

For one of my college level nutrition classes I did a dietary analysis of Phil Heath's diet for a day. Pretty cool that a college professor uses a bodybuilders diet as an example, huh? Anyway, let's see what kind of macronutrients this guy takes in.

Phil's body weight is - - 280 lbs and he consumes 33kcal/lb, in the protein department Phil consumes 3.25g/lb/bw. Why would a professional BB eat so much protein? Needs are certainly high but I guess he understands the thermic effect of food and has seen how much protein increases his metabolism.

So back to Phil's energy needs, athletes always understand that the more active they are the higher the need for energy. Otherwise we would never have professional bodybuilders at 290lbs on stage. So Phil eats 9394 kcal/d split up in 7 meals. Macronutrient wise Phil take in 910g of protein, a whopping 881g of carbs and 239 g of fat. The protein provides 3640 kcals of energy, the 3524 kcals of energy, and the fat provides 2151 kcals. Unfortunately for those who don't believe in calories, the nutrients are also used in the body to provide the ATP used to produce muscular contractions. Without calories, the body would absolutely shut down because calories = energy.

The breakdown
Protein = 910g = 3640 cal (39%)
Carbs = 881g = 3524 cal (38%) 881g or carbs ALL complex cabs sources but holy shit!
Fat - 239g = 211 cal (23%)

Now the strange thing about muscle (Fast twitch) is they are very glycogen dependent. In fact, if we don't have enough carbohydrates in the body to provide the energy we need to produce ATP for energy in the glycotic energy cycle, the muscles just shut down and don't function.

So let's break down Phil’s diet by the meal and see if Phil thinks calories/energy is of no importance and he relies only on macronutrients..

Meal 1 - 8 egg whites, 8 oz top sirloin steak (Lawry’s Steak Rub seasoning),1 1/2 cups oatmeal, 1 serving Vitakic 300 mg, 500 mg vitamin C, 500 mg fish oil. Total consumption: 745 calories, 101g protein, 38 carbs, 21g fat

Meal 2 - 12 oz sirloin steak, Lawry’s Steak Rub seasoning, 1 1/2 cups white rice, 1,500 mg glucosamine, Total consumption: 939 calories, 104 g protein, 80 g carbs, 22 g fat

Meal 3 - 12 oz ground turkey, 93% lean, 1 tbsp grape seed oil, 1 tsp chili powder, 1 tsp onion powder, 1 tsp basil, 12 oz potato, baked, 2 tbsp ketchup. Total consumption: 903 calories, 59 g protein, 82 g carbs, 38 g fat

Preworkout - 1-2 scoops naNO Vapor Hardcore Pro Series, 1 serving NOX9 Hardcore, 1 scoop NQP-47 Total consumption: 275 calories, 33 g protein, 32 g carbs, 0 g fat

Workout - 2 scoops IntraVol (intraworkout). Total consumption: 160 calories, 0 g protein, 40 g carbs, 0 g fat

Post- Workout replenish - 1 serving Cell-Tech Hardcore Pro Series, 1 serving Nitro Isolate 65 Pro Series, 500 mg vitamin C, 500 mg fish oil. Total consumption: 620 calories, 65 g protein, 86 g carbs, 1 g fat

Meal 4 - 12 oz chicken, boneless, skinless, 2 tbsp honey barbecue sauce, 12 oz yam, baked, 1 tsp cinnamon, 1 serving Vitakic. Total consumption: 990 calories, 111 g protein, 102 g carbs, 12 g fat

Meal 5 - 10 0z teriyaki chicken, 1 1/2 cups white rice, 3 - 12-oz diet Cokes, 1 Philadelphia roll1 cream salmon roll (tempura fried), 2 large pieces tempura-fried shrimp, 2 pieces hamachi yellowtail sushi, 6 pieces hamachi yellowtail sushi, 6 pieces sake salmon sushi, Mixed salad. Total consumption: 2,407 calories, 130 g protein, 288 g carbs, 78 g fat

Meal 6 - 1 serving Cell-Tech Hardcore Pro Series, 1 serving Nitro Isolate 65 Pro Series, 500 mg vitamin C, 500 mg fish oil. Total consumption: 942 calories, 104 g protein, 80 g carbs, 22 g fat

Meal 7 - 12 oz tilapia, 1 tbsp grape seed oil, Lawry’s Lemon Pepper seasoning, Broccoll, Unlimited*, 500 mg vitamin C, 500 mg fish oil. Total consumption: 617 calories, 95 g protein, 12 g carbs, 23 g fat

Meal 8 - 10 oz ground sirloin, 95% lean, Lawry’s Steak Rub seasoning, Steamed mixed vegetables, unlimited*. Total consumption: 796 calories, 108 g protein, 41 g carbs, 22 g fat

Obviously looking at the diet of a true "expert", energy needs are very important so Phil eats a huge amount of calories to meet these needs, macronutrients are very important which is why is diet is high in protein but also includes enough carbohydrate meet the needs of the glycotic energy system he uses in the gym and to help sustain a high level of muscle synthesis. Phil also meets the needs f dietary fat but pays particular attention to the particular types of fat he take in (ie. fish oil, grape seed oil). Seems the one thing we have left out of this discussion is the needs for micronutrients.. If we don't meet the needs of our hard working body for vitamins and minerals we eventually start having huge deficiencies and our body starts having health issues. So to day macronutrients is all that matters is saying we don't need energy or micronutrients.

The law of thermodynamics (I know science sucks)..............all this says is energy is neither created of destroyed. Now lets try to apply this to the body......the food we eat provides energy......this energy is either used to power bodily needs or it is stored for future use. Some fat is stored as muscle triglycerides and the rest stored in adipose. Carbohydrates are either used for energy needs, stored in glycogen stores or converted to fat and stored in the adipose. Protein is broken down to aminos acids and used by the body, it can also be converted to glycogen but is very hard to store as fat because of the energy it take to make this conversion.

I know, some of my students say NO WAY CAN ANYONE EAT ALMOST 10,000 CALORIES A DAY AND NOT BE SUPER OBEASE When I competed as a world champion powerlifter I at 10,000 calories a day and was not so fat. Most highly competitive athletes in a variety of sports also tell me they eat about the same. WHY? Because their energy needs are incredibly high. Does each athlete pay very close attention to macronutrients? OF COURSE.......each sport has different needs. But the one thing most all highly competitive athletes also pay just as much attention to is MICRONUTRIENTS. Those vitamins and mineral are equally as important as energy needs and macronutrient needs. This is what makes the difference many times in winners and losers.