Should You Count Trace Proteins? (The Truth About Protein for Muscle Growth)

[eazy]

CLIFFS:

1) A high quality protein source is a protein source that provides high amounts of essential amino acids. (leucine or the branching amino acids)

Digestible indispensable amino acid score (DIAAS)

DIAAS is currently the most accurate score for routinely assessing the protein quality rating of single source proteins.

2) The problem with ignoring trace protein.

If you don't count it and still aim for 1.2-1.4 g/lb from just meat, whey, eggs you overshoot.

1-1.4 grams per pound of body weight of protein will do everything you want it to do to max out
muscle. And there's not any more gains to really go beyond that. If there are, they are small.

A bodybuilder trying to consume 350 grams of protein per day in the offseason eating rice and berries and veggies and all these other sources, that protein intake can easily add another 100 to 150 grams. This bb'r is actually consuming close to 500 grams of protein per day.

Those calories could be allocated to carbs instead the main fuel source for training and to aid in recovery.

Also can cause digestion issues, low appetite.

3) If I lower protein intake and count trace protein, what if I don't get enough essential amino acids?

-A study comparing 48g of rice protein to whey protein over 8 weeks found no difference in muscle gain.

-Vegans and omnivores can gain the same muscle mass with sufficient protein intake
(approximately 1.6 g/kg or more).

-When total protein intake is high enough, differences in specific amino acids like leucine are less important.

-The body can store and use amino acids from different meals, meaning you don't need to consume a "complete" protein source at every meal.

4) Count all protein sources. Get 50% from high quality sources and 50% from mixed and trace sources.

 

[tommyguns2]

This is excellent. Jewett really provides a lot of excellent content. So many people trying to gain express difficulties in digestion and getting all of their food in. If they can reduce their essential protein intake and sub that with carbs that digest easily, I can see quite a bit of value.

I had no idea that our indirect/trace protein intake was as much as 100-150g per day. I'd like to hear more about where the trace amounts come from with respect to our oats, COR, sweet potatoes, veggies and fruits.

 

[BrotherIron]

It's 2x a hard for excess protein to be converted to fat then carbs so I wouldn't be concerned. You have to realize from a biochemical standpoint ALL cellular functions that take place in your body is done by a protein so they ALWAYS have a job to do.

Just like all the zero carb zealots would know if they took a biochem class... all roads lead to glycolsis. You don't want to ingest carbs for your energy source, no problem. It's called gluconeogenesis.

Oh yeah and don't forget... your body also utilizes a "use it or lose it" doctrine when it comes to protein meaning if you don't have a complete protein, the body doesn't store it waiting for the rest of the AA to come around.

 

[genetic freak]

Like BrotherIron said, not concerned.

I like John. I have taken all of his courses, but if you have and you follow his podcasts and podcasts he does with others, he talks out both sides of his mouth A LOT. One second, he will tell you that you need to include Glutamine in your protein and overall calorie count then the next second he tells you it doesn't matter as long as you are consistent.

An 8 week study... give me a break. It was 8 weeks, as it was on university students with little to no training experience and they needed to fit it into the semester. A waste of time.

 

[Bigtex]

I am probably one of the MOST anal people on this board. For years I put everything I eat in Cronometer. It registers all the nutrients in the food eat including foods that might not have a complete amino acid. It also breaks protein down into individual amino acids so you can quickly see if you are getting necessary amounts of each amino. As long as you are eating meats and getting the necessary protein requirements for your activity level you don't have to worry about things like glutamic acid because you are getting plenty of amino acids through protein foods. Glutamate and glutamine are highly abundant amino acids found in most foodstuffs. These Nonessential amino acids are alanine, arginine, asparagine, aspartic acid, cysteine, glutamic acid, glutamine, glycine, proline, serine, and tyrosine. While these non-essential amino acids are easily found in most foods we eat, they can be completely synthesized in the body. So honestly, as long as you are eating the calories you need for growth you will have plenty of the non-essential aminos. The essential aminos can be an issue because these are needed daily though diet. The more active we are, the more we need. As far as I am concerned if you are consuming a diet consisting of meats and dairy products you are most likely getting plenty of the essential aminos. I consume 315g of protein through dairy products, chicken and fish. I weight 233lbs so that is 1.35g/lb/bw. I am not at all concerned about how much of the non-essential trace proteins I get through rice or anything else i eat because I eat plenty of protein. I agree, not concerned at all. See below

 

[Bigtex]

This is excellent. Jewett really provides a lot of excellent content. So many people trying to gain express difficulties in digestion and getting all of their food in. If they can reduce their essential protein intake and sub that with carbs that digest easily, I can see quite a bit of value.

I had no idea that our indirect/trace protein intake was as much as 100-150g per day. I'd like to hear more about where the trace amounts come from with respect to our oats, COR, sweet potatoes, veggies and fruits.

Oats have about 5.5g of protein per 1/2 serving. Rice has 4.3g per 1 cup serving. However in the case of oats, lysine remains the limiting amino acid. With rice, lysine is the limiting amino acid. You absolutely have to have both of these in your daily diet or you muscle growth will be drastically compromised. If you are eating meats, eggs and dairy with rice and oats you have no issue. Does tis stuff absolutely have to be counted? If you are as anal about nutrition as I am but in reality if you are not using a computer nutritional analysis counting these will be a pain in the ass. As long as you are eating enough whole proteins like meats, eggs, and dairy products to give you at least 1g/lb/bw you have no worries.

However if you are a vegan, this becomes very important. How difficult is this? You still need about 3g of leucine/d to maximize hypertrophy. Plant proteins average only 5–7% leucine and can be deficient in one or more essential amino acids. While most of us only need 1.6-2.2g/kg/bw/d, vegans need much more (2.0.2.2g/kg because plant proteins are typically less digestible. Plant proteins generally have lower digestibility (~70–90%) than animal (~95–100%). Vegans are also going to have to learn how to combine complementary proteins (e.g., rice + pea, lentils + grains). Problem #2, or energy metabolism process to produce ATP is like starting in 1st gear. You absolutely have to have creatine, which is found only in animal products, to ever get to the glycogen and aerobic energy production. Plant based diets also provide no B12, iron, zinc or omega 3. We already know high omega 6 intakes can cause inflammation in the body.

 

[genetic freak]

To say someone is getting an extra 150 g of protein form trace sources means you would have to be consuming 600 g of oats, 1200 g of rice and 2000 g of potato a day and even that falls a little short. That would be 5500 total calories just from your carb sources.

 

[Bigtex]

Exactly @genetic freak. If you are a vegan, might be a good idea to choose another sport. As long as you are getting that ~1g/lb /bw from an animal based diet you do
not need to waste the time nit picking protein.


"When total protein intake is high enough, differences in specific amino acids like leucine are less important." "The body can store and use amino acids from different meals, meaning you don't need to consume a "complete" protein source at every meal."

Hmmmmm.....I would say both are equally as important. As long as you get ~1g/lb/bw of animal based protein, you are going to get enough leucine to maximize hypertrophy. You do need to spread out meals that contain leucine through the day. Research shows that evenly distributing protein/leucine intake across 3–4 meals (each with ~0.4–0.55 g/kg body weight of protein) is more effective for hypertrophy than consuming most of your protein in one sitting. This ensures a steady supply of amino acids for muscle repair and growth. A single meal with, say, 6 g of leucine (double the optimal dose) doesn’t “carry over” to later meals.

When you consume leucine (or any amino acid), it’s absorbed into the bloodstream and used relatively quickly. Leucine triggers MPS by activating the mTOR pathway, but this effect peaks within ~1–3 hours after a meal and then declines. Unlike glycogen (stored carbs) or fat, the body doesn’t have a dedicated storage system for free amino acids like leucine. Sheesh, a little basic information on nutrition tells us this.

 

[BrotherIron]

Exactly @genetic freak. If you are a vegan, might be a good idea to choose another sport. As long as you are getting that ~1g/lb /bw from an animal based diet you do
not need to waste the time nit picking protein.

If you’re vegan, you’ve got bigger problems than protein count. Pretending plant proteins are somehow equal to animal proteins. They aren’t. Bioavailability, amino acid completeness, and micronutrient density all take a hit when you cut out animal products.

 

[genetic freak]

If you’re vegan, you’ve got bigger problems than protein count. Pretending plant proteins are somehow equal to animal proteins. They aren’t. Bioavailability, amino acid completeness, and micronutrient density all take a hit when you cut out animal products.

Yep! This is even why I limit shakes.

The look you get when consuming mostly animal proteins far exceeds that of diets high in shakes and bars.

 

[Bigtex]

Yep! This is even why I limit shakes.

The look you get when consuming mostly animal proteins far exceeds that of diets high in shakes and bars.

As of today I am doing the same thing. I think the high sugars in the weight gain shakes I drink on training day are causing a huge insulin spike which has caused y A1c to be slightly above normal. I am going to use a home made smoothie to compensate for the calories I need combines with EVOO to slow absorption of any carbs from the fruit. That will slow insulin and help get that A1c down slightly. I get plenty of protein from chicken, seafood and Greek Yogurt. I will keep the protein shake I do in the morning to break the fast.

 

[Bigtex]

"-1.4 grams per pound of body weight of protein will do everything you want it to do to max out
muscle. And there's not any more gains to really go beyond that. If there are, they are small."

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2666379123005402

Discussion​

The study included three groups: one group consuming 25 grams of protein, another consuming 100 grams of protein and a final group receiving a placebo (no protein).

Here, we show that the anabolic response to protein ingestion has no apparent upper limit in magnitude and duration in vivo in humans. We demonstrate that protein ingestion results in a dose-dependent increase in dietary-protein-derived amino acid availability and a concomitant increase in muscle and whole-body protein synthesis rates....we observed that the ingestion of a single, large amount of protein (100 g) resulted in prolonged anabolism without compromising whole-body protein breakdown rates, muscle mTOR signaling, or markers of muscle autophagy. What they didn't investigate is what is the actual limit if there is any. This indicates that consuming substantial amounts of protein in one sitting does not lead to waste, debunking the myth that protein beyond 20 grams is ineffective.

As i explain in my college classes your need for protein increases as the intensity and duration of exercise increase. During prolonged and high-intensity short duration exercise, the body oxidizes amino acids, particularly branched-chain amino acids (BCAAs) like leucine, isoleucine, and valine, to produce energy. What this means for the average fitness person who is going to the gym for 45 minutes 3 days a week, your needs will be much less that that of the elite athlete or pro bodybuilder. While 1.4 grams per pound of body weight of protein will most definitely do it for most gym goers, those on the elite level may need more. Since we don't really know the upper limits I would never make a blanket statement telling people more is not any better.