Intermittent Fasting When Cutting?

[Turbolag]

I am stubborn as an SOB when it comes to this. As I discussed with SAD before, the is only one reason IF wouldn't work for someone, and that's if they are consuming too many calories that they just can't physically get them all in in an 8 hour window. On my training days, I am pushing that limit. Otherwise, if calories and macros are there, it will work.

It definitely takes some adjusting. But I like it so far. I like using IIFYM also.

 

[GiantSlayer]

I have never used it but I look at it this way. ANY DIET will work if it means your dropping your old bad habits. Atkins, zone, low carb, low fat....bla bla blah.... Listen! The only way to get healthy and stay that way is to follow a SUSTAINABLE healthy diet FOR LIFE. If intermittent fasting is sustainable for you, then more power to you. Just for the record, it may work for weight loss and general health but your not going to gain much lean mass on IF. Not as much as you could following the every 2 hours protocol.

 

[shortz]

Not as much as you could following the every 2 hours protocol.

Have any science to back that up? I made more gains from 3 meals a day than I ever did eating every 2-3 hours, which is why I am so adamant about challenging the old school methodology. It's already been proven over and over that eating every 2-3 hours doesn't speed up metabolism, now you're claiming it will put more mass on you?

 

[Turbolag]

Have any science to back that up? I made more gains from 3 meals a day than I ever did eating every 2-3 hours, which is why I am so adamant about challenging the old school methodology.

I think when putting ON muscle it seems like the two hour method will be better BECAUSE, its easier to get in your meals.

If you are trying to consume 8,000 calories in a day and trying to keep it healthy, that's A LOT of food to consume.

I don't have any science to back it up, but just taking a look at some body builders, strong men and power lifters who use this approach they have a nice amount of muscle.

I'm not saying they can't do it with IF, it just seems like it is going to be easier to get the food in that you need.

I'm in no way trying to argue or start a debate, haha. Just my thoughts.

 

[SAD]

There are numerous studies that show that eating TOO often actually desensitizes your body to aminos, making it that much easier for your liver to turn those aminos into glucose (gluconeogenesis). I think the studies I'm remembering showed that anything less than 3 hours between feedings was working against yourself vs. the same cals/macros spread out every 4-5+ hours.

I know I haven't hit a plateau since I abandoned the every 2 hours standby years ago.

 

[shortz]

Some light reading...

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00421-009-1289-x

Increased p70s6k phosphorylation during intake of a protein–carbohydrate drink following resistance exercise in the fasted state

Abstract

The present study aimed at comparing the responses of myogenic regulatory factors and signaling pathways involved in muscle protein synthesis after a resistance training session performed in either the fasted or fed state. According to a randomized crossover study design, six young male subjects participated in two experimental sessions separated by 3 weeks. In each session, they performed a standardized resistance training. After the sessions, they received during a 4-h recovery period 6 ml/kg b.w. h of a solution containing carbohydrates (50 g/l), protein hydrolysate (33 g/l), and leucine (16.6 g/l). On one occasion, the resistance exercise session was performed after the intake of a carbohydrate-rich breakfast (B), whereas in the other session they remained fasted (F). Needle biopsies from m. vastus lateralis were obtained before (Rest), and 1 h (+1h) and 4 h (+4h) after exercise. Myogenin, MRF4, and MyoD1 mRNA contents were determined by RT-PCR. Phosphorylation of PKB (protein kinase B), GSK3, p70s6k (p70 ribosomal S6 kinase), eIF2B, eEF2 (eukaryotic elongation factor 2), ERK1/2, and p38 was measured via western blotting. Compared with F, the pre-exercise phosphorylation states of PKB and p70s6k were higher in B, whereas those of eIF2B and eEF2 were lower. During recovery, the phosphorylation state of p70s6k was lower in B than in F (p = 0.02). There were no differences in basal mRNA contents between B and F. However, compared with F at +1h, MyoD1 and MRF4 mRNA contents were lower in B (p < 0.05). Our results indicate that prior fasting may stimulate the intramyocellular anabolic response to ingestion of a carbohydrate/protein/leucine mixture following a heavy resistance training session.

http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/287/1/E1.full

Branched-chain amino acids increase p70S6k phosphorylation in human skeletal muscle after resistance exercise

Abstract

The aim of the study was to investigate the effect of resistance exercise alone or in combination with oral intake of branched-chain amino acids (BCAA) on phosphorylation of the 70-kDa S6 protein kinase (p70S6k) and mitogen-activated protein kinase (MAPK), extracellular signal-regulated kinase (ERK1/2), and p38 MAPK in skeletal muscle. Seven male subjects performed one session of quadriceps muscle resistance training (4 × 10 repetitions at 80% of one repetition maximum) on two occasions. In a randomized order, double-blind, crossover test, subjects ingested a solution of BCAA or placebo during and after exercise. Ingestion of BCAA increased plasma concentrations of isoleucine, leucine, and valine during exercise and throughout recovery after exercise (2 h postexercise), whereas no change was noted after the placebo trial. Resistance exercise led to a robust increase in p70S6k phosphorylation at Ser424 and/or Thr421, which persisted 1 and 2 h after exercise. BCAA ingestion further enhanced p70S6k phosphorylation 3.5-fold during recovery. p70S6k phosphorylation at Thr389 was unaltered directly after resistance exercise. However, during recovery, Thr389 phosphorylation was profoundly increased, but only during the BCAA trial. Furthermore, phosphorylation of the ribosomal protein S6 was also increased in the recovery period only during the BCAA trial. Exercise led to a marked increase in ERK1/2 and p38 MAPK phosphorylation, which was completely suppressed upon recovery and unaltered by BCAA. In conclusion, BCAA, ingested during and after resistance exercise, mediate signal transduction through p70S6k in skeletal muscle.

Mark Burkham's take on the subject...

Myth: Fasted training sucks. You'll lose muscle and have no strength.

Truth

A large body of research on sports performance during Ramadan concludes that aerobic activities, such as 60 minutes of running, has a small yet significant negative impact on performance. A very large confounder here is dehydration, as Ramadan fasting involves fluid restriction. That said, anaerobic performance, such as weight training, is much less impacted.

However, more relevant and telling studies, which don't involve fluid restriction, show that strength and lower intensity endurance training is unaffected - even after 3.5 days of fasting. New research on fasted training supports this. If you read my review of that study, you'll see that the only parameter the fed group did better on was improvements in V02max, which is likely explained by the fact that the carbs allowed them to train at a higher intensity. However, note the other interesting results obtained in the fasted group. Also note that a review I did of another fasted endurance training study showed no negative effect of fasting on endurance or VO2max (quite the contary in fact). This can be explained by the lower intensity.

In conclusion, training in the fasted state does not affect your performance during weight training, which is what most people reading this are interested in. However, training in a completely fasted state is still not something I recommend for optimal progress. Research is quite clear on the benefits of pre-workout and post-workout protein intake for maximizing protein synthesis. For this reason, I suggest supplementing with 10 g BCAA prior to fasted training.

 

[Turbolag]

In conclusion, training in the fasted state does not affect your performance during weight training, which is what most people reading this are interested in. However, training in a completely fasted state is still not something I recommend for optimal progress. Research is quite clear on the benefits of pre-workout and post-workout protein intake for maximizing protein synthesis. For this reason, I suggest supplementing with 10 g BCAA prior to fasted training.

When I hit my two bench PRs last year they were BOTH in a fasted state. It was 7 AM in the morning and I had not eaten anything since around 8 or 9 the night before. And at the time, my thinking was "man I'm gonna be so weak today because I Haven't eaten yet". And instead I had a great training session!! I was shocked and excited.

I like training on an empty stomach. I have more energy and my strength feels better.

I realized this when I started Carbohydrate Back Loading.

Fasted weight lifting for me is better.

Plus I don't get tired so easy. I think ingesting carbohydrates pre workout just makes you sleepy. At least it does me, so I don't like to eat carbohydrates before a workout.

I would rather not have anything.

 

[GiantSlayer]

Fasted training works because your digestive system robs huge amounts of blood. Don't eat anything pre workout. Especially carbs, they will make you tired not energized.

Do I have scientific evidence of the 2 hour method? How about pretty much every successful bodybuilder ever. Show me ONE pro bodybuilder that built his physique from scratch, reached the 250lb mark and got a pro card using intermittent fasting the whole time. You won't cause it doesn't exist.

 

[shortz]

Fasted training works because your digestive system robs huge amounts of blood. Don't eat anything pre workout. Especially carbs, they will make you tired not energized.

Do I have scientific evidence of the 2 hour method? How about pretty much every successful bodybuilder ever. Show me ONE pro bodybuilder that built his physique from scratch, reached the 250lb mark and got a pro card using intermittent fasting the whole time. You won't cause it doesn't exist.

and that's what I thought. You don't ever have anything, and your posts are always filled with broscience.

Pros have been using IF for years, you just don't realize it. IF doesn't necessarily have to be done in exactly the same way. A lot of pros do cardio fasted, first thing in the AM. Also, you seem to think that because something isn't popular now in the pro circuit doesn't mean it doesn't work or work well. Just like the whole IIFYM debate we have, I think in another thread you also mentioned "No pro does that for contest prep", when, in fact, many pros do use it, you just don't THINK they do. Every year we are seeing more and more pros using these other methods, like IF and IIFYM. You seem to automatically think of only Coleman, Cutler etc, and assume every pro does what they do

 

[GiantSlayer]

Yes my posts are almost always broscience. That is because I realize that your "science" and studies are always flawed and often prove one small aspect while turning the cheek to the whole bigger picture. Example: Does IF increase natural production of hgh? Yes, it does. And thus IF is good. However what is happening to your cortisol? What are you doing to your insulin sensitivity by cramming all your food into a few engorged hours? How do these things effect your ability to grow or even maintain lean mass?

To say that studies show that the 2 hour method does not speed up metabolism is ridiculous because there are decades worth of studies that show it does. Bottom line is, the studies don't matter. It's what has been used repeatedly in history and shown to work that matters to me.

 

[shortz]

To say that studies show that the 2 hour method does not speed up metabolism is ridiculous because there are decades worth of studies that show it does. .

Show me decades worth of studies...

 

[GiantSlayer]

Relax guy. The shit is not hitting the fan. Maybe it is at your house. I tried to dig up some studies but all I get is page after page of articles claiming to disprove it. Regardless, if I were to find them, it would be negating my whole post anyway. I do not trust or believe any study even if it is proving an idea I like. A scientific study doesn't mean anything especially so if it is corporate funded. I'm not saying the IF studies have a corporate agenda...... Look. In 5 or 10 years when people are still using IF and have made great gains, then maybe I'll change my mind. It's just a trend.