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Intermittent Fasting When Cutting?

shortz

shortz

Beard of Knowledge VIP
May 6, 2013
3,107
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lol Srry, I get a little dramatic at times. I'll bring it down a notch.

Here is more reading. I managed to dig this up through reading more of Mark's stuff. It's a good read. It's basically saying the studies that have been done were simply a collection of data and found that people who ate more frequently tended to be leaner. It was just an observation, but not necessarily proving it. There haven't been any other studies that have actually proven the idea. The first part of this is actually part of what SAD mentioned earlier. See, he's not just big and dumb after all! Just messing with ya, SAD. ;)

Myth: Eat frequently to "stoke the metabolic fire".


Truth

Each time you eat, metabolic rate increases slightly for a few hours. Paradoxically, it takes energy to break down and absorb energy. This is the Thermic Effect of Food (TEF). The amount of energy expended is directly proportional to the amount of calories and nutrients consumed in the meal.

Let's assume that we are measuring TEF during 24 hours in a diet of 2700 kcal with 40% protein, 40% carbohydrate and 20% fat. We run three different trials where the only thing we change is the the meal frequency.

A) Three meals: 900 kcal per meal.

B) Six meals: 450 kcal per meal.

C) Nine meals: 300 kcal per meal.

What we'd find is a different pattern in regards to TEF. Example "A" would yield a larger and long lasting boost in metabolic rate that would gradually taper off until the next meal came around; TEF would show a "peak and valley"-pattern. "C" would yield a very weak but consistent boost in metabolic rate; an even pattern. "B" would be somewhere in between.

However, at the end of the 24-hour period, or as long as it would take to assimilate the nutrients, there would be no difference in TEF. The total amount of energy expended by TEF would be identical in each scenario. Meal frequency does not affect total TEF. You cannot "trick" the body in to burning more or less calories by manipulating meal frequency.

Further reading: I have covered the topic of meal frequency at great length on this site before.

The most extensive review of studies on various meal frequencies and TEF was published in 1997. It looked at many different studies that compared TEF during meal frequencies ranging from 1-17 meals and concluded:

"Studies using whole-body calorimetry and doubly-labelled water to assess total 24 h energy expenditure find no difference between nibbling and gorging".


Since then, no studies have refuted this. For a summary of the above cited study, read this research review by Lyle McDonald.

Earlier this year, a new study was published on the topic. As expected, no differences were found between a lower (3 meals) and higher meal (6 meals) frequency. Read this post for my summary of the study. This study garnered some attention in the mass media and it was nice to see the meal frequency myth being debunked in The New York Times.

Origin

Seeing how conclusive and clear research is on the topic of meal frequency, you might wonder why it is that some people, quite often RDs in fact, keep repeating the myth of "stoking the metabolic fire" by eating small meals on a frequent basis. My best guess is that they've somehow misunderstood TEF. After all, they're technically right to say you keep your metabolism humming along by eating frequently. They just missed that critical part where it was explained that TEF is proportional to the calories consumed in each meal.

Another guess is that they base the advice on some epidemiological studies that found an inverse correlation between high meal frequency and body weight in the population. What that means is that researchers may look at the dietary pattern of thousands individuals and find that those who eat more frequently tend to weigh less than those who eat less frequently. It's important to point out that these studies are uncontrolled in terms of calorie intake and are done on Average Joes (i.e. normal people who do not count calories and just eat spontaneously like most people).

There's a saying that goes "correlation does not imply causation" and this warrants further explanation since it explains many other dietary myths and fallacies. Just because there's a connection between low meal frequencies and higher body weights, doesn't mean that low meal frequencies cause weight gain. Those studies likely show that people who tend to eat less frequently have:

* Dysregulated eating patterns; the personality type that skips breakfast in favor of a donut in the car on the way to work, undereat during the day, and overeat in the evening. They tend to be less concerned with health and diet than those who eat more frequently.

* Another feasible explanation for the association between low meal frequencies and higher body weight is that meal skipping is often used as a weight loss strategy. People who are overweight are more likely to be on a diet and eat fewer meals.

The connection between lower meal frequency and higher body weight in the general population, and vice versa, is connected to behavioral patterns - not metabolism.
 
GiantSlayer

GiantSlayer

VIP Member
Jan 27, 2013
2,405
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It's a good read. I do have some objections but I have no "science" to prove my opinion, which is merely that of opinion.

First, I believe your body can assimilate a smaller meal better than a large one. I bet there is a study to prove and one to disprove this. Is that better for weight loss? Maybe not, but better for lean mass gain? If you eat the right food I would think so.

second is this:
"The connection between lower meal frequency and higher body weight in the general population, and vice versa, is connected to behavioral patterns - not metabolism."

I understand this is an article about metabolism but are there other benefits to eating multiple small meals other than an increase in metabolism? To generalize and say that the correlation is based on behavior patterns is a total cop out. You can take any study (or collection of data) and come up with the same lame conclusion... which is exactly why they are flawed. They can not successfully eliminate these other variables, such as behavior.

Hey shortz, we could argue this all night. I have to do cardio at 500am (and it will be fasted lol) and i's past 1000 here on the east coast.

You know, if one of the IF guys made a log that we could follow for a few months, that would be very interesting.

I hereby nominate PoB as the perfect candidate to do an IF log.
 
SAD

SAD

TID Board Of Directors
Feb 3, 2011
3,690
2,335
I won't be logging it in the sense that I'll keep an updated log, but I'm running IF right now to try and get down to the low teens. I expect to have a visible six-pack by November, while staying above 260. Does that work?
 
1bigun11

1bigun11

MuscleHead
Oct 23, 2010
2,142
1,832
They have to keep coming up with new theories on diet and exercise to sell magazines, get clients, and get funding for new studies. Truth of the matter is that people have pretty much known how to build muscle since 600 b.c. when Milo of Croton picked up the newborn calf, and continued lifting it each day, until he was lifting a full grown bull. His diet consisted primarily of meat and bread, in very large quantities.

Pretty much sums it up, doesnt it?
 
GiantSlayer

GiantSlayer

VIP Member
Jan 27, 2013
2,405
726
I won't be logging it in the sense that I'll keep an updated log, but I'm running IF right now to try and get down to the low teens. I expect to have a visible six-pack by November, while staying above 260. Does that work?

Yes this would show reasonable lean mass retention. It would be strange if your lifts went up. I am interested in your results but the question of using IF to actually gain lean mass would still remain.
 
SAD

SAD

TID Board Of Directors
Feb 3, 2011
3,690
2,335
Yes this would show reasonable lean mass retention. It would be strange if your lifts went up. I am interested in your results but the question of using IF to actually gain lean mass would still remain.

I absolutely do NOT expect my lifts to go up. I mean, there will be some conflicting data because for the last two months I haven't been able to squat or press due to injuries, so as I am able to train those again I'll make gains undoubtedly. But as far as max strength compared to just before my last meet, well, I expect it to take many many months of training at ~12-14% bf to reach them again.

I also never claimed that a guy my size could gain LBM on IF. Not because of the fasting for 16 hours, but because of the inability to cram enough cals into 8 hours. I know you weren't saying that I claimed I could make gains, just clarifying.
 
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