Cellulitis, staph, strep and IM injections

[apollo]

I want to start a thread that is in no way all conclusive in hopes there will be other contributors- as i know there are many knowledgable guys on here.

Cellulitis is a skin infection most commonly caused by staphylococcus or streptococcus bacterias.
Various types of these live on the skin and in the mouth, nose, throat of humans.
This applies to us bc we take shots through the skin where these bacteria reside and can be put past the defenses of the body (skin), in an environment where it can flourish, through a needle puncturing that skin.

Now of course many will say oh just swab the stopper and area to be injected with an alcohol swab and it wont be a problem-
NOT TRUE!
These bacterium form biofilms to protect themselves and flourish and become more pathogenic from exposure to benzyl alcohol and ethanols. See these studies:

First:
ScienceDirect - American Journal of Infection Control : Benzyl alcohol and ethanol can enhance the pathogenic potential of clinical Staphylococcus epidermidis strains

ScienceDirect - Microbial Pathogenesis : Global gene expression in Staphylococcus aureus following exposure to alcohol

So your alcohol swabs are not a sure fire prevention.

And while we are on the subject- are you aware that you need to let the alcohol dry on the stopper before sticking and your skin to be more effective against what it will kill?

Now I am currently researching what we can use to kill staph and strep topically before injection and on stoppers. I mean I use lysol wipes on my gloved hands alot as well as on my ungloved hands at times but those are hardly safe for injection sites or stoppers bc it is a toxin to the body.

Also let's talk about other parts of proper procedures gents:
You do not want to breathe on the needle nor injection site before injection!
MRSA lives in the nostrils and strep bacteria lives in the mouth and nose as well.

Furthermore you guys need to be careful especially when doing shots in more suseptable areas like biceps for example. Why? BC biceps are directly below what? Your arm pits. Where a ton of bacteria is harbored and flourishes due to moist dark environment. Boils or pimples under arms? Be very careful!
Gyms like hospitals schools and prisons are very susceptable to staph.
Add in a lowered immune system from tons of AAS and dieting = more susceptability.


http://www.hapmd.com/home/hapmdcom/...ugia/bibliografica-cx/20110504_articulo_3.pdf


Streptococcal Infections (invasive group A strep)



Staph infections linked to ‘manscaping’


I am also researching how long staph and strep are able to survive in a solution with 2% BA as an anti bacterial. I have found a study where it was a cpl of days after being inoculated(introduced with feed for the bacteria) with staph before the vial was sterile but it did'nt say exactly the anti bacterial agent. I do know that these bacteria feed off of the carbon from BA. i dont think Staph or strep would survive very long but I need study to back that up.

I believe using a sterile closed system of filtering and transferring is the only garauntee against bacterial contamination.

Cases Journal | Full text | Sepsis requiring intensive care following intramuscular injections: two case reports

^^^^
These 2 individuals got sepsis from staph from IM injections given by health care professionals as treatment for smaller problems.

Lets all research this- come up with a better topical swab prior to injection so we can be more protected bc my scientist friend says staph is making a magor comeback bros.
Lets ask the questions and find the answers and share info to help eachother.

 

[biguglynewf]

Well you will never eliminate bacteria. Ever. So regardless if gear is 100% contamination free and even if you follow good aseptic technique you could still get an infection.

We can only try to drive risk down to levels where infection isn;t likely to occur.

Staph is all over everyone and is everywhere....Some carry much more than others. And many of us are MRSA positivie and don;t even know it. MRSA can be scary becasue of its resistance to treatment and its aggressive growth.

Strep too can be all over. Although that usually is coming from other areas and may occur mostly due to things like poor hygiene habits/handwashing.....Well some tyes anyhow.

As far as BA goes we need to remember that it is not necessarily anti bacterial but used as an anti-colonization agent. A little different thing. This prevents bacteria from colonizing in/on the media. In this case, the oil.

Other factors affect growth as well such as heat, light, moisture, oxygen etc. etc. etc. Keeping bacterial growth out of the log phase is essential here I would think.

An iodine solution is usually most effective against bacteria (at least from what I remember) but I'm not sure we would want to use that. After that, I would expect 70% (not 90%!!!! - as this can casue certain bacteria, clostridium strains for example, to form spores) is usually the best. As appollo said it is important to swab and let dry prior to doing anything.

I'm sure Alltheway should have something to add here as well as a few others!

 

[SHINE]

one of the bigest problems is people don't take enuff time swabbing with alcohol, 90% at least 1 min of contact time.
hell most of your doc's and nurses don't always do this properly.

 

[apollo]

The probability of gear made with shotty aseptic technique causing staph induced cellulitis is highly improbable:


However the probability of gear that staph has been just recently introduced via shotty aseptic technique in drawing from MDV(multi dose vial) is much more probable if it is reused very soon after user introduced said bacteria with his shotty aseptic technique.
See study below:

Development of a Multidose Formulation for a Humanized Monoclonal Antibody Using Experimental Design Techniques

"The efficacy of the preservative against various microorganisms was measured using a modified USP/EP PET (referred to as preservative screening test in this document). Tests were conducted at Microconsult Inc (Dallas, TX). In the procedure, formulations were tested against the following microorganisms: Escherichia coli, Staphylococcus aureus, Pseudomonas aeruginosa, Candida albicans, and Aspergillus niger. The 3 bacterial strains were inoculated together at a total concentration of ~105 cfu/mL, as were the 2 fungi. Samples were incubated for 7 days at room temperature (25°C), and the total bacterial and fungal counts were measured using a colony counter. The log reduction (LR) values for the bacterial and fungal counts were calculated as log (initial count/final count)."

"Results of the preservative screening tests showed that the formulations containing 0.75% and 0.5% benzyl alcohol are potential candidates to meet the USP/EP criteria (Table 4). Both formulations demonstrated a complete kill of the tested bacterial and fungal species after 7 days. For all other samples, either the total bacterial count after 7 days was too numerous to count, or no effective reduction in the bacterial count was observed."

"Benzyl alcohol caused significant aggregation at high concentrations (≥1.0%); however, it was the most effective preservative in maintaining antimicrobial efficacy against bacteria and fungi."

 

[athens]

Have you ever considered using Chlorobutanol instead of BA?

Also, most people don't realize that there are incidences of MRSA being detected airborne. 20% of the MRSA particles were within the respirable range, of less than 4 microns. This is also why it is good to use a Flow hood with a filtration of 0.3 microns when doing any type of drug compounding.

Staph has been on the rise for years. Schools, gym, Daycare centers, Staph has even been detected on the astroturf on the NFL playing field. The problem is overuse of antibiotics. Vancomycin has been one of the last antibiotics in the chain that treats gram positive bacteria. However vancomycin has been passed around like a tijuana hooker over the years. When its patent ran out in the early 80's it was widely prescribed throughout the world, helping to create an epipdemic of VRO (vanocmycin resistant organisms).

Im curious on your thoughts of completely closed system of filtration and transfer. Filtration is easily done in a closed system, but transfer? Not so easy. Even when using a peristaltic pump and changing your tubing after every use, you still have to fill a open un capped vial.

 

[dragevo]

Good info here apollo. I work in a large trauma hospital in the area. I draw blood from arteries atleast 5 times a shift to access pH/PaCO2/PaO2/HCO3 and oxygen saturation of the arterial blood. Alcohol only kills bacteria during the drying process where it breaks down the cellular membrane of said bacteria. Everytime at the doctors getting a shot they never let the alcohol dry. Drives me crazy. When I was training for my job they made it very clear of the dangers of putting bacteria into a patients arteries. Alcohol is still the standard of care for sticks.

Another thing, gloves arent sterile and even if you have 2 sterile gloves keeping them sterile is near impossible for 1 person to do. Your better off pretending everything is contaminated and not touching anything that will possible come in contact with the stick site or the syringe.

 

[apollo]

Have you ever considered using Chlorobutanol instead of BA?

Also, most people don't realize that there are incidences of MRSA being detected airborne. 20% of the MRSA particles were within the respirable range, of less than 4 microns. This is also why it is good to use a Flow hood with a filtration of 0.3 microns when doing any type of drug compounding.

Staph has been on the rise for years. Schools, gym, Daycare centers, Staph has even been detected on the astroturf on the NFL playing field. The problem is overuse of antibiotics. Vancomycin has been one of the last antibiotics in the chain that treats gram positive bacteria. However vancomycin has been passed around like a tijuana hooker over the years. When its patent ran out in the early 80's it was widely prescribed throughout the world, helping to create an epipdemic of VRO (vanocmycin resistant organisms).

Im curious on your thoughts of completely closed system of filtration and transfer. Filtration is easily done in a closed system, but transfer? Not so easy. Even when using a peristaltic pump and changing your tubing after every use, you still have to fill a open un capped vial.

Not for injection- No wont consider it it's a depressent and there has been shown a direct correlation with steroid users and depressent drug use such as opiates and barbituates. I dont think I want to help that along in anyone sir.

Hepa filtration at .3 microns and proper technique are effective in compounding in the way you speak of.

I have'nt been too open about my system and technique of purification and i dont think I'll put it out just yet. Here's why:
I am gonna make a video of it all. That's right. I am going to proove everything I say.

However, I will give you a PM and some place to start : ) There is more than one way to do it and on different size scales. And definately never in an open vial. Matter of fact- one using a factory sterilized vial certified to be life form free and pyrogen free should never have the stopper removed : ).

Good post. Thank You.

Good info here apollo. I work in a large trauma hospital in the area. I draw blood from arteries atleast 5 times a shift to access pH/PaCO2/PaO2/HCO3 and oxygen saturation of the arterial blood. Alcohol only kills bacteria during the drying process where it breaks down the cellular membrane of said bacteria. Everytime at the doctors getting a shot they never let the alcohol dry. Drives me crazy. When I was training for my job they made it very clear of the dangers of putting bacteria into a patients arteries. Alcohol is still the standard of care for sticks.

Another thing, gloves arent sterile and even if you have 2 sterile gloves keeping them sterile is near impossible for 1 person to do. Your better off pretending everything is contaminated and not touching anything that will possible come in contact with the stick site or the syringe.

LOL! Agreed that it is hard to keep hands and gloves bac free but here's why I use gloves:
I can use sanitizing wipes on them and not fuck up my hands! LOL!

I was talking about gloves in the manufacturing process moreso than injecting. lol I hear you on Dr.s and nurses never letting the alcohol dry man. I was in the medical field in direct treatment many yrs ago and so was my mother so I have seen it a zillion times.

Thank you for an excellent post sir.

 

[jdjack]

Focus on keeping your IMMUNE system working great. Give it the best ability to fight, and you have the BEST defense possible. No man-made creation will replace the God-given ability. Not to say don't take precautions at all though. You MUST have immunity, and SHOULD have precautions.

 

[apollo]

Focus on keeping your IMMUNE system working great. Give it the best ability to fight, and you have the BEST defense possible. No man-made creation will replace the God-given ability. Not to say don't take precautions at all though. You MUST have immunity, and SHOULD have precautions.

Agreed. Good post.

 

[FlyingDragon]

Not sure what the purpose of this thread other than to scare people on a risk and danger that is highly unlikely to occur. Now if there was truly an outbreak of staph while injecting with AAS, your thread is highly useful and serves a purpose. But I have not heard of any cases based on the theories described. I am not here to argue the science, it is what it is, but causing people to panic is not useful in my opinion. You have a better chance of coming across harmful bacteria in our food supply, not by taking an injection under normal conditions. Again I am not here to cause anyone to cry or cause an argument, just making a comment that some may agree or disagree with.

 

[apollo]

Not sure what the purpose of this thread other than to scare people on a risk and danger that is highly unlikely to occur. Now if there was truly an outbreak of staph while injecting with AAS, your thread is highly useful and serves a purpose. But I have not heard of any cases based on the theories described. I am not here to argue the science, it is what it is, but causing people to panic is not useful in my opinion. You have a better chance of coming across harmful bacteria in our food supply, not by taking an injection under normal conditions. Again I am not here to cause anyone to cry or cause an argument, just making a comment that some may agree or disagree with.

I dont think it's purpose is useless. Staph and strep causing cellulitis- a skin infection- from improper injection techniques and the science of why gear that's 7 days old or older is not likely to be contaminated, even if proper aseptic technique is not used during it's manufacturing, is not meant to scare ppl away from gear. If anything knowing this should make guys more comfortable with bacterial problems from UG gear.

And using proper aseptic technique- including using more contact time of swab and allowing it to dry and not breathing on needle and or injection site- keeping a staph or strep caused problem that alot of guys due to high AAS use and dieting therefore lowered immune system could be suseptible to- I think serves a great purpose.

Awareness and more caution on their end of how they inject and use on their end to cover there ass.

Everything negative but true about gear and it's use cant be denied by calling it a scare tactic. If that's the case I suppose Shines' thread about AAS being bad for the heart is useless too huh?

I mean ego and vanity is one thing and health and longevity is another- and I think finding a balance between the 2 serves a great purpose.

If this info keeps even one member from getting a infection- it serves a purpose.
I dont think ppl should stop using gear altogether no more than I think the negative should be hidden by sources or ppl in the know just so they can make $ or exploit. I think ppl should use smarter though. But no one is forcing them to read this or heed this. It is their choice. But at least it gives them the ability to make an informed one. Or motivates them to research it for themselves.

Besides it might keep a source from getting falsely blamed by uneducated or ill intented guys looking for a scapegoat. There's plenty of honey(gear) and money(cash) to go around- but if their is science and info to be known so good choices can be made- let it be known just as experience should be shared too.

So if you mean what you say and have considered it- that's your opinion and no offense taken.

But there is a current problem with MRSA and it being resistant. Also- seeing how staph lives on tons of ppls skin and under certain conditions can cause a problem- It is important we avoid those conditions- that's all. If I'm doin a show and am dieting and on heavy AAS use- I need to be more careful and more aware and aseptic in how I do things. That is no longer the highest percentage of AAS users I dont think. But even the recreational look good to get pussy user should be aware. LOL!

 

[BlueDevil]

one of the bigest problems is people don't take enuff time swabbing with alcohol, 90% at least 1 min of contact time.
hell most of your doc's and nurses don't always do this properly.

Swabbing from the inside out is also something I think a lot of people fail to do.

Interesting thread, Apollo. I don't fully understand all the science but interesting nonetheless.