AI Dosing Question

[Tiny]

I’m hoping you can chime in on this. I’ve never had estrogen/gyno problems in the past and I took a few years off gear. I never ran any AI on cycle, and unfortunately never did bloodwork.


Recently, I started test at 375 and added 200 deca a few weeks in. I had developed some gyno pretty quickly with some decent lumps. I started aromasin at 12.5mg everyday and Nolva at 40mg daily.

about 8-10 days after starting aromasin, I had bloodwork done. Estrogen was 68.

i know dosing can vary and everyone can respond differently, but was wondering if anyone here can chime in on the matter.

is it common that I may need more ai than this?
what kind of E levels do you have at your ai dosage?


total test was 1292, estrogen 68, and prolactin/progesterone were both within range.

 

[CFM]

Yeah that is a bit high. But do you have itchy nips, small lumps? High dose B6. 50-100 Mast. Drop some BF if you have it. I would try almost anything before riding the AI rollercoaster.

 

[Wilson6]

Ditto CFM, add some MAST and cut back the T a little, check DHT as well. IMO, the E2/DHT ratio is what seems to matter. Consider why finasteride causes gyno. Doesn't effect E2 very much, just knocks down DHT and DHT is a potent inhibitor of aromatase. Much rather use DHT or DHT derived androgen than an AI, esp Mast or Primo bc both are still active in skeletal muscle, DHT is converted into a more potent estrogen and weak androgen.

 

[Tiny]

I have what I consider some pretty damn big lumps. Visible if you know what you’re looking for. they were a little puffy and sensitive, like normal, then one day lumps.

im also not a fan of AI, thats why I never used them before. And never needed them even at ~750/wk

now I’m running letro and raloxifene and it seems they’re regressing. I have primo on hand and considered masteron (which I don’t have currently) to help reduce aromatase conversion. I will be seeing my doctor in a few weeks and have a consult with a trt doc this coming week.

I don’t have calipers, but I would estimate I am sub 12% BF or so. Plenty vascular and decent stirations when flexed. I have just a little extra BF on lower abs, love handles, and glutes. Everything else is pretty tight.

initially I thought it was the deca so I dropped way back on dosage to 75/wk, but progesterone isn’t out of whack. Just estrogen.

more than anything, I’m curious if 12.5mg daily should be adequate. Most often I see 12.5 EOD, or 25mg EOD as the suggested dose. I hoped it would be adequate especially since I’m running a relatively low dose compared to many.

not sure if this is normal individual response , or perhaps my ugl aromasin is underdosed. My letro is pharma grade.

 

[Kluso]

Nandrolone can bind to the Progesterone receptor causing gyno. From what I understand. You won’t have high progesterone on bloodwork. Best thing is nolva or SERM if that’s what’s doing it. If you have primo that has worked for me at preventing gyno on nandro too. Same with proviron. I personally would rather run proviron rather than AI or nolva. Works well for me. 50-100mg per day. Since you already have the lumps I would definitely stay on the nolva. I’ve never tried Ralox personally. Should do same thing. I’m not sure how the primo or proviron helps exactly but it does for me. If it were me I would add in some primo (unless saving it) and up the Ralox/ nolva a bit. It’s been awhile since I needed nolva but I want to say 20mg is what I used to use. 40mg tops. Stay on it till they shrink back down. I would probably drop the nandro and add the primo instead. It’s more likely the problem than estrogen. Your estrogen isn’t high compared to your total test and you even said you have never needed an AI before. Have you run deca or npp before? If not that definitely it. Same happened to me first time I ran deca. Stayed away for a long time. Cause I don’t like having to run nolva. Felt like it killed my gains. But now I can run it with primo or proviron. I can even run 50mg dbol every day without getting estrogen sides when I add proviron or primo. Blew me away when I realized this.

 

[Kluso]

Also I tried the letro thing too to get rid of lumps. All it did was make me feel like shit. Nolva will do the trick. Just takes some time for them to shrink back down. And when you come off your cycle they should shrink a little more. I still have lumps under my nipples but not really visible. But I can feel them still. Sometimes they do swell up a little on cycle but then go back down when I come off. Nandro is the biggest culprit for me.

 

[Tiny]

Thanks for the insight.
Yes I’ve ran test/deca multiple times without incident. In the past, I ran 300/wk of deca. Possibly even higher. I can’t remember 15 years ago and don’t have all my logs anymore .

I have been reading so much on the prolactin, progesterone gyno thing and I haven’t come across any solid/conclusive info on it directly causing gyno. One thing that I did see was the synergy between deca/test causes more of the testosterone aromatize than test alone. Another thing that I read was progesterone itself doesn’t cause gyno but high estrogen must also be present.

Deca has been my choice to alleviate joint stress. I’ve had problems with my fingers for quite a while and for the first time they’re almost pain free. I hope to sustain it at small doses.

I went with raloxifene due to some broscience and medical research claiming it has improved results on reducing gyno over nolva. The ralox and letro are both pharma so I went that route over ugl until I can get a script from the doc.

not sure on proviron either. All I know about it is that it helps raise free test via shbg. I will def look into it.
primo and mast both have some interaction with the aromatase enzymes, reducing estrogen conversion. I’m not sure how an ai would come into the mix as far as dosing on mast/primo so I will talk to the doc and do bloods to scope things out before adding primo.

 

[genetic freak]

I have seen estrogen in clients all over the place. The most common factor in guys with high estrogen or estrogen related side effects, they are almost all fat (greater than 15% BF). They will have a 10:1 test to estrogen ratio before an AI and even when we introduce an AI, they still do not drop very much. Even had one on TRT only who was in the 120's on aromasin. He had to go to 1 mg of arimidex everyday just to get to 93. If they are legit TRT then we just continue to attack with AI's, sometimes we have to lower their TRT dose. If they are on their own TRT program or are into other stuff then add in mast and/or primo.

Raloxofin has shown to reverse gyno if you catch it early enough. Glad it seems to be working for you.

 

[CFM]

I have what I consider some pretty damn big lumps. Visible if you know what you’re looking for. they were a little puffy and sensitive, like normal, then one day lumps.

im also not a fan of AI, thats why I never used them before. And never needed them even at ~750/wk

now I’m running letro and raloxifene and it seems they’re regressing. I have primo on hand and considered masteron (which I don’t have currently) to help reduce aromatase conversion. I will be seeing my doctor in a few weeks and have a consult with a trt doc this coming week.

I don’t have calipers, but I would estimate I am sub 12% BF or so. Plenty vascular and decent stirations when flexed. I have just a little extra BF on lower abs, love handles, and glutes. Everything else is pretty tight.

initially I thought it was the deca so I dropped way back on dosage to 75/wk, but progesterone isn’t out of whack. Just estrogen.

more than anything, I’m curious if 12.5mg daily should be adequate. Most often I see 12.5 EOD, or 25mg EOD as the suggested dose. I hoped it would be adequate especially since I’m running a relatively low dose compared to many.

not sure if this is normal individual response , or perhaps my ugl aromasin is underdosed. My letro is pharma grade.

For what is worth I have had visible lumps. They always subsided with either completely going off AAS or dropping down to <100mgs of only Test. I used to think going low dose was going to rob me of gains and in my experience I lost water and fat and looked better, felt better. Now I run as low as I can, don't have the stress and side effect issues. I trained with a freakish muscled out BB, he earned his pro card and only used 150mgs of Test. Most of us are using way more than we need. Way more!

 

[genetic freak]

For what is worth I have had visible lumps. They always subsided with either completely going off AAS or dropping down to <100mgs of only Test. I used to think going low dose was going to rob me of gains and in my experience I lost water and fat and looked better, felt better. Now I run as low as I can, don't have the stress and side effect issues. I trained with a freakish muscled out BB, he earned his pro card and only used 150mgs of Test. Most of us are using way more than we need. Way more!

I have been preaching this for a while now brother! If you cannot grow on 150 mg of test and maybe sprinkle in some mast, primo or NPP, your training, nutrition and/or recovery fucking sucks. Despite my handle, my genetics for building muscle are not great, but I still put on quite a bit of mass with very low doses. My full blast cycles are less than what some are considering TRT+ these days.

 

[Tiny]

I have seen estrogen in clients all over the place. The most common factor in guys with high estrogen or estrogen related side effects, they are almost all fat (greater than 15% BF). They will have a 10:1 test to estrogen ratio before an AI and even when we introduce an AI, they still do not drop very much. Even had one on TRT only who was in the 120's on aromasin. He had to go to 1 mg of arimidex everyday just to get to 93. If they are legit TRT then we just continue to attack with AI's, sometimes we have to lower their TRT dose. If they are on their own TRT program or are into other stuff then add in mast and/or primo.

Raloxofin has shown to reverse gyno if you catch it early enough. Glad it seems to be working for you.

Wow. That’s pretty crazy to see such minimal results in AI efficacy associated with higher BF%. I know fat increases aromatase, but didn’t think 15% would be in that realm. Perhaps body chemistry comes into play too? 120 to 93 is only like a 20% reduction. im Curious if increased dosage would have the same diminished result? Couldn’t find much in the way of studies on this topic.

I hear you on the lower dosing of test. 375, I felt was pretty conservative to see how I respond. Results have been great with a serum under 1300, which isn’t crazy high and sides (besides gyno) have been nonexistent. My HDL did drop from 49 to like 25, but my total cholesterol and LDL also came down proportionally. I try to stay under 10g saturated Fats daily so I’m not sure if diet has affected that also.

 

[Jrod]

I had a similar experience when I did test and deca. I hadn’t run a cycle in years and even longer since I ran deca. I also never used AI in the past. I developed small lumps under nips as well. I thought it was from the hcg but I’ve never run deca again but have used hcg since and haven’t had the problem.
I tried letro after the cycle to reduce the lumps which it did somewhat but made me feel horrible.
Hope you found a solution.