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What makes a person strong

macgyver

macgyver

TID Board Of Directors
Nov 24, 2011
1,997
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If it's just the numbers and form and stuff doesn't matter, what about this girl?

If I could possibly get into that form and bench like that who knows what weight I could get up. Just by the numbers though she's as strong or stronger than a lot of people here.

I didn't mean to sound like getting your head in the game was simple or minor either, just that it helps.

There is a difference between REAL WORLD strength and power lifting. In powerlifting, you try to optimize form so you do as little "work" as possible. As an example a fat short powerlifter with a decent arch moves the weight very little through a legal ROM. Same thing with that little girl. Look at how much the weight actually moves.

One thing many are missing in this discussion is limb ratios and muscle attachment and insertion points. One's overall geometry has a HUGE impact upon how much weight they can move effectively. A long limb, short torso guy makes a great deadlifter as they pull almost upright, but usually they are not good benchers...etc.

While I respect powerlifting strength, I am not sure it has much real work application. (especially equipped lifting). This is an interesting discussion, but the real answer is what type of "strength" are you trying to define. If a car fell on me, I could care less about a guys wilks score. Please send the biggest guy you got to lift the thing off me! ;) But things like Wilks do a good job of letting you know how your strength compares in rarity across lifters of different sizes.

What I really respect are guys who are equally strong across all lifts. Strongman is even a cool thing and if I were younger I might compete in such events.
 
Rottenrogue

Rottenrogue

Strongwoman
Jan 26, 2011
6,619
1,934
There is a difference between REAL WORLD strength and power lifting. In powerlifting, you try to optimize form so you do as little "work" as possible. As an example a fat short powerlifter with a decent arch moves the weight very little through a legal ROM. Same thing with that little girl. Look at how much the weight actually moves.

One thing many are missing in this discussion is limb ratios and muscle attachment and insertion points. One's overall geometry has a HUGE impact upon how much weight they can move effectively. A long limb, short torso guy makes a great deadlifter as they pull almost upright, but usually they are not good benchers...etc.

While I respect powerlifting strength, I am not sure it has much real work application. (especially equipped lifting). This is an interesting discussion, but the real answer is what type of "strength" are you trying to define. If a car fell on me, I could care less about a guys wilks score. Please send the biggest guy you got to lift the thing off me! ;) But things like Wilks do a good job of letting you know how your strength compares in rarity across lifters of different sizes.

What I really respect are guys who are equally strong across all lifts. Strongman is even a cool thing and if I were younger I might compete in such events.
WE have a masters class!!!!!!!!
 
RAIDEN

RAIDEN

VIP Member
Feb 22, 2012
4,385
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There is a difference between REAL WORLD strength and power lifting. In powerlifting, you try to optimize form so you do as little "work" as possible. As an example a fat short powerlifter with a decent arch moves the weight very little through a legal ROM. Same thing with that little girl. Look at how much the weight actually moves.

One thing many are missing in this discussion is limb ratios and muscle attachment and insertion points. One's overall geometry has a HUGE impact upon how much weight they can move effectively. A long limb, short torso guy makes a great deadlifter as they pull almost upright, but usually they are not good benchers...etc.

While I respect powerlifting strength, I am not sure it has much real work application. (especially equipped lifting). This is an interesting discussion, but the real answer is what type of "strength" are you trying to define. If a car fell on me, I could care less about a guys wilks score. Please send the biggest guy you got to lift the thing off me! ;) But things like Wilks do a good job of letting you know how your strength compares in rarity across lifters of different sizes.

What I really respect are guys who are equally strong across all lifts. Strongman is even a cool thing and if I were younger I might compete in such events.

As you asked, what kind of strength are we talking about. I asked in my first post of this thread, as I used the scenario of two people with same size, build, training time, program etc. I tried to make them identical in every way conceivable, with the end question being why will one be stronger than the other and used squat as an example, or bench or something.

You brought up a good point with limbs and such also the ROM. I can't help but think of someone tall who has a long ROM but pulls big numbers and is strong. (Don't know if that made sense lol)
 
BrotherIron

BrotherIron

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Mar 6, 2011
10,717
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If it's just the numbers and form and stuff doesn't matter, what about this girl?
If I could possibly get into that form and bench like that who knows what weight I could get up. Just by the numbers though she's as strong or stronger than a lot of people here.

I didn't mean to sound like getting your head in the game was simple or minor either, just that it helps.

You need to re-read what I wrote. I didn't say form doesn't matter. I said you're idea and the idea of perfect form is subjective. If you also notice many on here posting are PLers and in the end what wins meets???? The TOTAL lifted.. ie. the number for your squat, your bench, and your deadlift. The total that those 3 make up. Not how pretty you made the lift look. In the end a maximal weigh lifted... a TRUE maximal lift is not going to have perfect form. Again... what constitutes perfect form. To arch, to not to arch, to tuck your elbows, to tuck your legs back or plant them firmly out in front to the sides, to look up or out in front when you squat, etc....

You want to arch when you bench... then work on it. It doesn't just happen. She's also using gear to perform that bench so you can't compare her to raw lifters and vice versa. Apples to apples...

I'm not talking about deadlifting some measly 225, benching 185, or squatting 225. I'm talking about weight... real weight. I'm talking about spine crushing weight.... 2-3x body weight or potentially more.

Some of the strongest people I know throw what most would say is common cues for form and they lift weight most won't sniff on the bar. Let alone actually attempt to lift.
 
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JR Ewing

JR Ewing

MuscleHead
Nov 9, 2012
1,329
420
Neuromuscular effeciency?

Genetics are very important. I have always been very strong on squats, leg presses, hacks, etc. Pretty strong on deads/pulls, rows, etc. Relatively weak on pressing movements. My squat has always been almost double my bench, despite the fact that I have a barrel chest and thick pecs.
 
monsoon

monsoon

Senior Bacon VIP
Nov 1, 2010
5,037
1,724
You haven't lifted a weight until you've put it on a bar a lifted it. The whole calculator theoretical lifts are just that theory. I've trained with someone who could squat 405 for 10 easy but when we would put 495 on the bar (and we didn't just put it right after) he would fold like a lawn chair. You have to train your nervous system to handle the workload too.
The assumption was that he or she had already done it, not that the first time he does 5x5 at 225 he is a 275 plus bencher. I meant that if I watch someone move the 5x5 at the gym on one bench and the guy on the next bench is flopping around under 275 I'm going to assume guy 1 is stronger.
 
kyle grey

kyle grey

MuscleHead
May 15, 2012
687
193
From the book Supertraining by Yuri Verkhoshansky and Mel Siff -
In general the production of strength depends on the following major factors :

Structural Factors
The cross- sectional area of the muscle
The density of muscle fibres per unit cross- sectional area
The efficiency of mechanical leverage across the joint

Functional Factors
The number of muscle fibres contracting simultaneously
The rate of contraction of muscle fibres
The efficiency of synchronisation of firing of the muscle fibres
The conduction velocity in the nerve fibres
The degree of inhibition of muscle fibres which do not contribute to the movement
The proportion of large diameter muscle fibres active
The efficiency of cooperation between different types of muscle fibres
The efficiency of the various stretch reflexes in controlling muscle tension
The excitation threshold of the nerve fibres supplying the muscles
The initial length of the muscles before contraction .

The connective tissues also play a vital role in the strength process .
 
TenaciousA

TenaciousA

TID Lady Member
Mar 31, 2013
1,240
432
Genetics X dedication to training X dedication to eating + lifting environment - injuries = Strength
Lifting. Environment.
The only way to get smarter is by playing a smarter opponent.

And tenacity for diet, mental clarity and self control/awareness, being receptive to feedbacl, time, time, time, genetics, and who (again, coaching and environment) and what (genetics, socioeconomic status, etc) luck.

And everything POB said.
 
TenaciousA

TenaciousA

TID Lady Member
Mar 31, 2013
1,240
432
As you asked, what kind of strength are we talking about. I asked in my first post of this thread, as I used the scenario of two people with same size, build, training time, program etc. I tried to make them identical in every way conceivable, with the end question being why will one be stronger than the other and used squat as an example, or bench or something.

You brought up a good point with limbs and such also the ROM. I can't help but think of someone tall who has a long ROM but pulls big numbers and is strong. (Don't know if that made sense lol)
Sorry to harp on this, but overall there really are just too many variables. Think about it like a clinical trials on my call in when we design studies, we look to control for as many confounding variables as possible to look at a specific interventions and how it pertains to a desired outcome. In your head to head trial comparing 2 arms (subjects or groups), the intervention would be a lifting program with t
X outcome. These people would be, apples to apples - similar ethnicity, similar race, religion, similar age, similar body composition and diseases or conditions, similar background lifestyle habits, food intake, and a various array of matched attitudes and beliefs about training, sleep, diet, stress, etcetera. - the best group in which study this would be those who have never lifted previously and were monozygotic twins. They would,
Of course, be the best bet the same genetics, or ability to recruit the pathways for this lifting study.

You can then assess X intervention / 16 weeks or ehatever, while strictly controlling the athletes intake of food, their sleep, their environments for stress, stimulation, freedom from other distractio s, and many other confounding variables. It really would be done in a vacuum.

The other possibility is it called a crossover study, whereby you take the same subjects and expose them to two different interventions, one after the other post appropriate washout, to look for a certain outcome. In your case, it would be generation of course, or strength, or muscle twitch speed, or CNS output, or blood draw the stuffing for various hormone pre and post lift, or forced vital capacity,CO2/O2 comspumption, BMR changes, whatwver else of the various different parameters we can use to assess athlete.

ATHLETE plus X x16 weeks, assess outcomes
Washout
Crossover to ATHLETE plus Yx16 weeks, assess outcomes.

Without this type of controlled environment, it's all ****ed. Too many confounders.
 
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PillarofBalance

PillarofBalance

Strength Pimp
Feb 27, 2011
17,066
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Where is our strength generated from?



Nervous System:

Periperal and Central

Neural development is actually not well understood. Evidence such as EMG testing has shown that NS adaptations do occur in both recruitment of the agonist muscles as well as de-activation of the antagonists. Or in some cases, co-contractions of the agonist and antagonist.

Reciprocating movements are where most of the adaptation seems to occur. This would include something like jumping where you crouch and then leap, or in our world, a squat, benchpress or any movement where there is an eccentric and concentric movement.

One area that is emphasized in both weightlifting and powerlifting is speed. Nervous system activity plays a tremendous role in this arena. If you take two similar sized men who are roughly equal in proportion and experience in pitching a baseball, why does one throw the ball faster than the other? Muscle size is not the answer. In a pitch where the arm reaches extension via triceps contraction we observe what is referred to as a tri-phasic burst pattern. Phase one is the initial extension of the arm where the triceps is contracting. Phase two involves a contraction of the biceps, the antagonist muscle in this situation, which is meant to slow the extension down to avoid elbow trauma. Phase three is the completion of the triceps contraction to terminal extension and release of the ball. The pitcher with the fasted throw experiences a later contraction of the antagonist – the biceps. This is purely nervous system control. The idea of doing lighter “speed work” where weight is of no concern but simply moving as fast as possible is intended to “train” the nervous system to apply the brakes later in the movement. So on a bench press, the biceps will fire just prior to lockout.

Another example of nervous system adaptations can occur within a single workout rather than adaptation over time. Begin a squat workout by unracking 135lbs and doing a set of 3. Keep doing sets of three until you are warm. Let’s say 10 sets of 3 does it for you. For this example let’s say you have a squat max of 600lbs and today you need to hit 90% for a single or 540 pounds. Now you are warmed up with 135. Now go straight to your working sets of 540 pounds for a single.

By working up with what we refer to as “ramping up” you would squat 135 for several sets of 3 to 5. 225 for several sets of 3. 315 for a triple. 405 for a single. 455 for a single. 495 for a single. 540 for a single.

Even after lifting a significantly higher volume of weight, in the ramp up your nervous system is now acclimated for a 540 pound squat. It should move quite easily as opposed to the jump from 135 to 540 which would crush you.











Energy: ATP

Food is fuel. I don’t even think this element of strength needs to be expanded on beyond – if you don’t eat enough, your work will suck.

One thing I actually would say beyond this is that carbohydrates, not fats should be your go to source of fuel for strength training. Lower reps, and totally anaerobic in general means you will not tap into fats for energy. I’m sure the keto crowd will disagree here and yes you can have energy while in ketosis. However I do not believe based on the evidence and the physiology of the human energy system that fat is a greater source of energy than carbohydrate.





Musculoskeletal System:

Skeleton

Let’s look at a very obvious example to illustrate how the skeletal system impacts strength:

Screenshot-at-Jan-09-15-09-04.png




In this picture above, you can see the acetabulum. This is where the ball at the top of the femur sits in the hip. On the left, you see an acetabulum that points forward and down. On the right you see one that points straight out to the side. If in a squat, maximum recruitment of the hips is achieved by lateral rotation of the femur, who do you think is going to squat more weight?

I’m a lucky SOB where the hip on the right is how mine looks. It has its drawbacks of course, like I can’t tuck my feet well on the bench for a big arch, but who cares about benching? My hips allow a very wide stance, a ton of hip drive and a more upright torso.

Limb lengths are another consideration. I coach a 123 pounder with a big deadlift. He is able to leverage his body weight very well due to the length of his arms in relation to his torso or legs. However his bench press suffers due to the long range of motion. Transversely, someone with T-Rex arms will likely have a massive bench and a poor deadlift – with exceptions to both of course.

Over time, loading of the skeleton will increase bone density in response to the stress.

Muscles

Once you have maximized leverages, building bigger muscles will assist in moving more weight. Big muscles, have larger fibers – moar weight.



Connective Tissues

Fascia, ligaments, cartilage and tendons – these are what hold you and your joints together. Weak connective tissues leave joints unstable and lead to injury.

Your tendons are there to transfer the force generated by the muscles to the bones. An example is when you squeeze the pectoralis, the muscle pulls on the tendon attached to the humerus which draws that bone in towards the midline. Weak tendons will either snap or not fully transfer energy.

The fascia eventually becomes part of the tendon so the same rules apply there. I will add that the fascia can become somewhat glued together. These adhesions or knots can hinder contractions.

Ligaments connect bone to bone. In your knee for example if your ACL – a ligament – was unstable, too long, or strained you will suffer injury or at least lose strength due to instability in the joint.



So those are some of the top physiological reasons we get strong… I haven’t touched on mental capacity. An article like that would take weeks for me to right. However sport psychology is a huge interest of mine and I might actually attempt it. For now I’ll just leave it with two points – positive mental imagery and self-efficacy.
 
PillarofBalance

PillarofBalance

Strength Pimp
Feb 27, 2011
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Sorry it took so long for that Raiden... it was a great question. I kept my thoughts as basic as possible.
 
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