Testosterone and High Red Blood Cell count

[Bigtex]

I was using cream and I think that was what elevated my levels a few weeks ago. Then completely stopped for a few weeks did another test and RBC count went to normal but the HCT still high

Probably you tested too soon. The 1/2 life of a RBC is about 120 days so it may take 3-4 months to get things back to normal. Be very careful doing those blood dumps and check your ferritin levels. Research has show that 35% of people who regularly dump blood cause an iron deficiency anemia. It can also have an effect on your training,. Maximal power output, VO2 max, and hemoglobin mass have been shown to decreased up to four weeks after a single whole blood donation in moderately trained people. Remember, no randomized or prospective studies have observed a direct relation between the testosterone induced secondary erythrocytosis and thromboembolic events.

In a study done over a two-year period of time they looked at men who donated blood that were on testosterone therapy and at least 25% of them had a hematocrit above
54% and when they came back for repeat donations 44% of them had a persistent elevation of hematocrit above 54%. So it essentially showed that repeat donations were insufficient to maintain a hematocrit below 54% in many men.

Since I realized you are a woman, the normal range is <48. The high is 2 points less than a man (50). Also remember, experts have already admitted this high number was just pulled out of thin air. There is no evidence that having high HCT (secondary erythrocytosis) is going to cause a thromboembolic event. There are over 80 million people that live higher than 2,500 meters and they develop a secondary erythrocytosis. Men in parts of Bolivia for instance have a normal range of HCT from 45-61%. These men are not at an increased risk of thrombotic events nor do they have to undergo phlebotomies to manage their hematocrit.

Good video

How different esters typically effect erythrocytosis

Henok Tadesse Ayele, Vanessa C. Brunetti, Christel Renoux, Vicky Tagalakis, Kristian B. Filion, Testosterone replacement therapy and the risk of venous thromboembolism: A systematic review and meta-analysis of randomized controlled trials. Thrombosis Research. Volume 199, 2021, Pages 123-131, ISSN 0049-3848,
https://doi.org/10.1016/j.thromres.2020.12.029.

Conclusions​

Our systematic review suggests that TRT is not associated with an increased risk of VTE. However, estimates were accompanied by a wide 95% CIs, and a clinically important increased risk cannot be ruled out.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 4821000062

We found no evidence of an increased risk of VTE with testosterone use.

 

[AJohnson]

Probably you tested too soon. The 1/2 life of a RBC is about 120 days so it may take 3-4 months to get things back to normal. Be very careful doing those blood dumps and check your ferritin levels. Research has show that 35% of people who regularly dump blood cause an iron deficiency anemia. It can also have an effect on your training,. Maximal power output, VO2 max, and hemoglobin mass have been shown to decreased up to four weeks after a single whole blood donation in moderately trained people. Remember, no randomized or prospective studies have observed a direct relation between the testosterone induced secondary erythrocytosis and thromboembolic events.

In a study done over a two-year period of time they looked at men who donated blood that were on testosterone therapy and at least 25% of them had a hematocrit above
54% and when they came back for repeat donations 44% of them had a persistent elevation of hematocrit above 54%. So it essentially showed that repeat donations were insufficient to maintain a hematocrit below 54% in many men.

Since I realized you are a woman, the normal range is <48. The high is 2 points less than a man (50). Also remember, experts have already admitted this high number was just pulled out of thin air. There is no evidence that having high HCT (secondary erythrocytosis) is going to cause a thromboembolic event. There are over 80 million people that live higher than 2,500 meters and they develop a secondary erythrocytosis. Men in parts of Bolivia for instance have a normal range of HCT from 45-61%. These men are not at an increased risk of thrombotic events nor do they have to undergo phlebotomies to manage their hematocrit.

Good video

How different esters typically effect erythrocytosis
View attachment 16040


Henok Tadesse Ayele, Vanessa C. Brunetti, Christel Renoux, Vicky Tagalakis, Kristian B. Filion, Testosterone replacement therapy and the risk of venous thromboembolism: A systematic review and meta-analysis of randomized controlled trials. Thrombosis Research. Volume 199, 2021, Pages 123-131, ISSN 0049-3848,
https://doi.org/10.1016/j.thromres.2020.12.029.

Conclusions​

Our systematic review suggests that TRT is not associated with an increased risk of VTE. However, estimates were accompanied by a wide 95% CIs, and a clinically important increased risk cannot be ruled out.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 4821000062

We found no evidence of an increased risk of VTE with testosterone use.

Thank you so much! Great information, I really appreciate that. It makes me feel much better.
I will get the Jak-2 results next week and if negative, I think I will proceed with caution. I was on the Testosterone pellets for a year and a half and my Test was 200 and I had zero negative issues except the high RBC on blood work

 

[Bigtex]

Thank you so much! Great information, I really appreciate that. It makes me feel much better.
I will get the Jak-2 results next week and if negative, I think I will proceed with caution. I was on the Testosterone pellets for a year and a half and my Test was 200 and I had zero negative issues except the high RBC on blood work

Yea, most TRT doctors are staying away from the pellets and going with the injections. It is much easier to control the dose that way. Gels can also have some erratic absorption rates making dosing difficult.

For future reference, women over 50 are considered deficient if their testosterone levels are less than 20 ng/dL. Free testosterone levels below 1.0 pg/mL The average range is 15-70ng/d. However, if you are experiencing symptoms of low T, regardless of your T levels you need to optimize your hormones. Doctors tend to treat numbers instead of treating symptoms.

Should we be prescribing testosterone to perimenopausal and menopausal women? A guide to prescribing testosterone for women in primary care - PMC

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

You also may want to check you estrogen levels. Normal levels are:

• 30 to 400 picograms per milliliter (pg/mL) if you haven’t gone through menopause yet
• 0 to 30 pg/mL if you’re postmenopausal

Both low and high levels of estrogen in women can result in low sexual desire or a loss of sex drive. Increasing testosterone can lead to higher estrogen levels. This is why numbers mean nothing, balancing your hormones is the key. Just enough testosterone to get rid of the low T symptoms but not so much that it throws your other hormones out of balance causing unwanted side effect. Be patient with the process and don't get in a rush. Its easy to add slightly more testosterone to reach that balanced state but much harder to correct when you go to fast.

 

[genetic freak]

A lot of good information there Big Tex.

PCMs freak out and no matter what data you throw at them, they won't hear it. I range anywhere from 54 on TRT to 58 when blasting if tren is involved even at 5-10 mg a day. PCM will tell me to blood dump, I tell him it is not happening. I did it before and it does nothing. Maybe temporary relief for a couple weeks, but it will come right back to the same level if not higher. My cholesterol is beautiful usually around 105-125 total no matter what I am using, BP is good and platelets are perfect. Just stay hydrated.

 

[Bigtex]

Robbins RC, Martin FG, Roe JM. Ingestion of grapefruit lowers elevated hematocrits in human subjects. Int J Vitam Nutr Res. 1988;58(4):414-7. PMID: 3243695.


Abstract
This study was based on in vitro observations that naringin isolated from grapefruit induced red cell aggregation and evidence that clumped red cells are removed from the circulation by phagocytosis. The effect on hematocrits of adding grapefruit to the daily diet was determined using 36 human subjects (12 F, 24 M) over a 42-day study. The hematocrits ranged from 36.5 to 55.8% at the start and 38.8% to 49.2% at the end of the study. There was a differential effect on the hematocrit. The largest decreases occurred at the highest hematocrits and the effect decreased on the intermediate hematocrits; however, the low hematocrits increased. There was no significant difference between ingesting 1/2 or 1 grapefruit per day but a decrease in hematocrit due to ingestion of grapefruit was statistically significant at the p less than 0.01 level.

 

[AJohnson]

Yea, most TRT doctors are staying away from the pellets and going with the injections. It is much easier to control the dose that way. Gels can also have some erratic absorption rates making dosing difficult.

For future reference, women over 50 are considered deficient if their testosterone levels are less than 20 ng/dL. Free testosterone levels below 1.0 pg/mL The average range is 15-70ng/d. However, if you are experiencing symptoms of low T, regardless of your T levels you need to optimize your hormones. Doctors tend to treat numbers instead of treating symptoms.

Should we be prescribing testosterone to perimenopausal and menopausal women? A guide to prescribing testosterone for women in primary care - PMC

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

You also may want to check you estrogen levels. Normal levels are:

• 30 to 400 picograms per milliliter (pg/mL) if you haven’t gone through menopause yet
• 0 to 30 pg/mL if you’re postmenopausal

Both low and high levels of estrogen in women can result in low sexual desire or a loss of sex drive. Increasing testosterone can lead to higher estrogen levels. This is why numbers mean nothing, balancing your hormones is the key. Just enough testosterone to get rid of the low T symptoms but not so much that it throws your other hormones out of balance causing unwanted side effect. Be patient with the process and don't get in a rush. Its easy to add slightly more testosterone to reach that balanced state but much harder to correct when you go to fast.

Thank you so much for all your information and support, that’s awesome!
yeah I am on an estogen patch and my estogen is 80.
I will keep you posted on the journey, thanks again

 

[AJohnson]

Do Sarms affect the HCT and RBC like TRT does? I have tried all the GROWTH HORMONE peptides and I got such an allergic reaction to them am unfortunately, I was so itchy and huge welts all over my body. It was horrible

 

[Bigtex]

We know very little about what SARMS do in the body. Ostarine for instance has been show to lower testosterone. Ostarine does not aromatize into estrogen directly, however, via the suppression of natural testosterone levels, it can create an unfavorable balance between testosterone and estrogen in the body, meaning estrogen will rise. So most likely you can screw up what ever balance in hormones you already have using SARMS. What does that mean for libido, as testosterone goes down and estrogen rises, libido will drop. Unless you are supplementing with testosterone. There is very little human evidence of whether or not it causes HCT to rise. 1-2 studies show small raises and others show none. All in all, I would not mess with this stuff as IMHO SARMS are practically useless. Especially for what you have to pay for them. They absolutely will not work for TRT.

I did find this Asian study: "Statistical analysis found no significant main effect of submaximal exercise or ostarine treatment on RBC count, HGB concentration, Hct values, MCV, and PLT count. Ostarine treatment had no significant main effect on WBC count." "Neither ostarine nor combined treatment changed the number of any blood cell type or the concentration of HGB, Hct, and MCV.'

Effects of Ostarine and Endurance Training on Some Functional, Hematological, and Biochemical Parameters in Male Rats

Non-steroidal Selective Androgen Receptor Modulators (SARMs) are currently a group of drug candidates with anabolic effects, tissue selectivity, and the pot...

brieflands.com

 

[Wilson6]

Do Sarms affect the HCT and RBC like TRT does? I have tried all the GROWTH HORMONE peptides and I got such an allergic reaction to them am unfortunately, I was so itchy and huge welts all over my body. It was horrible

Ditto Big TX, don't use SARMs, weak anabolics and are liver toxic, same sides as oral AAS. Stick with oxandrolone if you use an oral, lowest risk C-17 AAS and in low doses < 20 mg minimal hepatic issues. Again, rule out any genetic blood issues, then stick with inj testosterone CYP. 25 mg/wk total will get you in the 200 ng/dl range (see attached paper) and have positive effects on body comp, libido, etc. Sides are variable, you have to figure out your tolerance and genetic pre-disposition to them. Donate blood at most quarterly and keep an eye on ferritin. Stick with real GH if you want real GH effects 1 - 2 IU EOD. The source of your peptides could be an issue as well with allergic Rx, but be careful, the next reaction could be more serious. Also remember testosterone converts into estrogen in tissue, you may not need additional estrogen. The most important point here is that everyone is different and responds differently, good and bad. You have to clearly define your goals (to yourself), understand the risks (nothing is safe and virilizing sides are not generally reversible), get regular labs done and don't push your luck. Lastly, make sure dietary intake, training and lifestyle is optimized. PEDs are only a tool in the box, they have risks and should not taken lightly. If everything else is not optimized, you're wasting a cycle and stressing the system.

 

[AJohnson]

Ditto Big TX, don't use SARMs, weak anabolics and are liver toxic, same sides as oral AAS. Stick with oxandrolone if you use an oral, lowest risk C-17 AAS and in low doses < 20 mg minimal hepatic issues. Again, rule out any genetic blood issues, then stick with inj testosterone CYP. 25 mg/wk total will get you in the 200 ng/dl range (see attached paper) and have positive effects on body comp, libido, etc. Sides are variable, you have to figure out your tolerance and genetic pre-disposition to them. Donate blood at most quarterly and keep an eye on ferritin. Stick with real GH if you want real GH effects 1 - 2 IU EOD. The source of your peptides could be an issue as well with allergic Rx, but be careful, the next reaction could be more serious. Also remember testosterone converts into estrogen in tissue, you may not need additional estrogen. The most important point here is that everyone is different and responds differently, good and bad. You have to clearly define your goals (to yourself), understand the risks (nothing is safe and virilizing sides are not generally reversible), get regular labs done and don't push your luck. Lastly, make sure dietary intake, training and lifestyle is optimized. PEDs are only a tool in the box, they have risks and should not taken lightly. If everything else is not optimized, you're wasting a cycle and stressing the system.

My Jak-2 came back Negative

 

[monsoon]

My Jak-2 came back Negative

Did your insurance cover the test? I just had the blood draw and had to sign a paper that I understood it was $1100

 

[AJohnson]

Did your insurance cover the test? I just had the blood draw and had to sign a paper that I understood it was $1100

Yes they did