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Hcg pre pct help

Like_a_Weed

Like_a_Weed

MuscleHead
Jan 25, 2011
399
7
#1
I am so lost in trying to understand how best to use hcg towards the end of my cycle. I am on a 16 week cycle, 13 weeks of sustanon, then 3 weeks of prop. I will also be using winstrol the last 6 weeks. I will have 10000iu of hcg by the time the 3 weeks of prop begins (last 3 weeks of my cycle). I'm looking for ideas on how to best use my hcg. (2 5000iu vials) here's kinda what I'm thinking: every 5 days during the final 3 weeks of the cycle, which would be 4 shots of 2500iu each.
 
Seabass

Seabass

Member
Feb 19, 2011
67
7
#2
There are a lot of differing opinions on HCG use, but the data doesn't lie. Anything more than about 300iu per pin damages your leydig cells permenantly, as in forever.

250iu E3D is all you ever need. 10,000iu at 250iu per pin is 40 pins. 40 pins E3D is 120 days, aka 17 weeks, more than required but not harmful. Half that is fine. Nolva helps protect your leydig cells from HCG damage and helps stimulate test production as well, so use it throughout at a mere 20mg ED. Done.

Start 6 days after prop is done.
 
Like_a_Weed

Like_a_Weed

MuscleHead
Jan 25, 2011
399
7
#3
Oh, use the hcg post cycle? I could use one vial and save the other.
 
Seabass

Seabass

Member
Feb 19, 2011
67
7
#4
I use HCG as an integral part of my PCT. 250iu HCG E3D, 50 clomid ED, 40 Nolva for 30 days, bump down to 25 clomid, 20 nolva for the next 30 days, and I'm done. Few sides, no moodiness, acne goes away, and cheap cheap cheap.

And yes, I wait longer after cycle to start PCT than is generally advised, because I think the advice is flawed.
 
tommyguns2

tommyguns2

Senior Moderators
Staff Member
Dec 25, 2010
4,583
1,837
#5
Anything more than about 300iu per pin damages your leydig cells permenantly, as in forever.
Seabass, not calling you out, just wondering where the 300iu number came from? I've heard it's more like 1500. I'm on HRT and typically do HCG 1x per week, and it's usually at about 500iu. Don't wanna be doing anything harmful. respect.
 
Seabass

Seabass

Member
Feb 19, 2011
67
7
#7
Levalle OA, Suescun MO, Fiszlejder L, Aszpis S, Charreau E, Guitelman A, Calandra R. Effect of an antiestrogen on the testicular response to acute and chronic administration of hCG in normal and hypogonadotropic hypogonadic men: tamoxifen and testicular response to hCG. Andrologia 1991 Mar-Apr, 23(2):109-14

Smals AG, Pieters GF, Drayer JI, Boers GH, Benraad TJ, Kloppenborg PW. Tamoxifen suppresses gonadotropin-induced 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone accumulation in normal men. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1980 Nov, 51(5):1026-9

Both of these references outline the data that state HCG in high doses can be toxic to leydig cells, but I'm going ot have to rediscover my references for the data that shows 300 is about the limit of what they can tolerate. In your favor though, nolva is proven to protect leydig cells from this, at least at 'reasonable levels.' I always take nolva with hcg.

The data I've recovered after a short search does in fact say that 500iu is the highest dose well tolerated. however that same data suggests that 500iu gives no more benefit than 350iu is most subjects. Additionally, since HCG seems to have an active period of between a day and two days, injecting every day is unnecessary. Since the largest effective dose (350iu) is not always necessary, and levels about 500iu can cause damage, I am much more likely to stick with 250iu for safety and economy.

As for the use of HCG as PCT, I stand by that too. Back when it was suggested that HCG was too suppressive to be used during PCT the protocol was 5000iu per injection, or more. Of course it was suppressive. Using the minidose schedule, in conjunction with nolva, and especially with the addition of clomid, there is little to no estrogen rebound, no damage to natty test, and in my experience a soft landing.
 
Seabass

Seabass

Member
Feb 19, 2011
67
7
#10
and toxic to the liver, in a siilar fashion to oral AAS, and ibuprofinfor that matter.
 
AWARE72

AWARE72

MuscleHead
Oct 17, 2010
323
18
#11
Well I mean as it causes cancer....IDK..I've just choose not to use it and have had good luck with clomid.
 
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