A Very Serious Side Effect Steroids - Polycythemia

[Glycomann]

Glyco,you're confusing "ABUSE" with normal use.If you abuse AAS of course you run more risk than if you ran normal cycles and ran proper pct's and came off from time to time.As you said,look at the pro's.You know how much gear pro's run today? A lot more than the average everyday user that for certain.But even with that,there aren't as many pros dying as you'd expect.

I never run less than a gram a week of test,750mg of deca or eq and as I stated my blood work always comes back fine.As I said though,I really keep in control of my diet which is a HUGE part of my health in addition to my healthy lifestyle.I don't smoke,drink moderately and keep my training and cardio high.I teach MMA so I am always burning my body down brother.All big big parts to lasting health.

If you run a gram of test and 3/4 a gram of equipoise and you have RBCs in normal range then you are an oddity. I'm not coming down on you b/c I've been there too but doing near 2 grams of AAS is AAS abuse. You are taking 8-10 times the therapeutic dose of test and 15 or more times the therapeutic dose of boldenone, that is, when it was actually approved for human use for the short time it was. i just don't sugar coat the risks. I know I'm taking risks and accept it and minimize as much as possible. You probably do to some degree yourself. But I know even taking 1/2 a gram of stuff my RBCs will get high over time if I stay on to long and that is not a good situation. Now what hasn't been discussed here is that at high elevations hematocrit can be considered normal at 51.. 52%% and there is no indications of increased risk of heart disease or stroke at that viscosity. So, risk probably happens higher than that. Now when you are looking at 55% and up that is in the erythocytosis range and that is where the risk really starts to come into play. Then you are talking the same risks as erythrocytosis in my view.

You guys can rationalize this away all you want but if you were intellectually curious about this you would read up on these disease states.. and stating that there have never been any deaths associated with AAS is a bull shit line b/c it is nearly impossible to associate increased risks until there are a number of well controlled studies done. That's not going to happen b/c these are illegal activities making such studies impossible and ethical issues pervade any attempt to approve of such studies in any medical setting. So what you are left with, in cases like mine, is 3 decades of observation in the community. If you are honest with yourself you will come to the conclusion that yes there are definitely some risks since, if you are like me, you have seen your share of heart attacks, strokes and kidney disease and the number of victims seem to rise with the amount of abuse. That is plain and simple and beyond debate in my mind. If my kidneys shit the bed at 60 I know just what the cause was and that will suck but I am being honest with myself based on observation and the reading of hundreds and hundreds of scientific articles.

 

[SJA]

Well said. I get bloodwork twice each year and am fortunate that my RBC is normal. However, I would say that the majority of people that I know using AAS have elevated RBC and only 25% of them actually worry about it (or do something like give blood). Cycling smart and conservative is the best means of reducing the risk, but DNA will determine what the definition of "conservative" really is. Cycling safe = getting labs and ACTING appropriately on them. We all know the risk....we all have access to the knowledge base.....cycle safe

 

[Glycomann]

Well said. I get bloodwork twice each year and am fortunate that my RBC is normal. However, I would say that the majority of people that I know using AAS have elevated RBC and only 25% of them actually worry about it (or do something like give blood). Cycling smart and conservative is the best means of reducing the risk, but DNA will determine what the definition of "conservative" really is. Cycling safe = getting labs and ACTING appropriately on them. We all know the risk....we all have access to the knowledge base.....cycle safe

Yeah it's actually amazing to me sometimes how much some guys can take without unbearable side effects. I know one guy that is like a gram of tren and a gram of test a week and goes through A bombs like M&Ms and was like that for years. Then he couldn't piss and ended up in the hospital with a raging infection and a prostate the size of a coffee cake. But anyways some guys can take a fuck-ton of juice. If I took that much my face and feet would swell and I would eat the neighbor's dog and then choke the owner with the leash.

 

[F.I.S.T.]

If you run a gram of test and 3/4 a gram of equipoise and you have RBCs in normal range then you are an oddity. I'm not coming down on you b/c I've been there too but doing near 2 grams of AAS is AAS abuse. You are taking 8-10 times the therapeutic dose of test and 15 or more times the therapeutic dose of boldenone, that is, when it was actually approved for human use for the short time it was. i just don't sugar coat the risks. I know I'm taking risks and accept it and minimize as much as possible. You probably do to some degree yourself. But I know even taking 1/2 a gram of stuff my RBCs will get high over time if I stay on to long and that is not a good situation. Now what hasn't been discussed here is that at high elevations hematocrit can be considered normal at 51.. 52%% and there is no indications of increased risk of heart disease or stroke at that viscosity. So, risk probably happens higher than that. Now when you are looking at 55% and up that is in the erythocytosis range and that is where the risk really starts to come into play. Then you are talking the same risks as erythrocytosis in my view.

You guys can rationalize this away all you want but if you were intellectually curious about this you would read up on these disease states.. and stating that there have never been any deaths associated with AAS is a bull shit line b/c it is nearly impossible to associate increased risks until there are a number of well controlled studies done. That's not going to happen b/c these are illegal activities making such studies impossible and ethical issues pervade any attempt to approve of such studies in any medical setting. So what you are left with, in cases like mine, is 3 decades of observation in the community. If you are honest with yourself you will come to the conclusion that yes there are definitely some risks since, if you are like me, you have seen your share of heart attacks, strokes and kidney disease and the number of victims seem to rise with the amount of abuse. That is plain and simple and beyond debate in my mind. If my kidneys shit the bed at 60 I know just what the cause was and that will suck but I am being honest with myself based on observation and the reading of hundreds and hundreds of scientific articles.

I do run those doses and yes my rbc's will come back in the high "normal" range but this is easily combat-able through your training and diet.As you said 52% is in the high range but it considered "normal" high range.Now while for a non steroid user certain ranges may be considered abnormally high,it is not the same for one on AAS.

The bottom line is no matter what theory you wish to believe in or follow or live your life by,the main thing is how you react and knowing your own body and test results.By knowing these things you can easily keep track of anything that would be of concern and adjust accordingly.What I have learned through the yrs from not only myself but many that I know and have been involved with,know whats best for you,know how to read your bodies signals and constantly make changes to better suit your needs.By constantly having your blood work done,any possible health issues can be easily fixed.

Oh just to be clear,I didn't mean I never come off of deca or eq,I meant test only.I was only stating when I do run deca/eq they are never less than those doses.Test I am basically always on.

 

[Body_Builder]

Now while for a non steroid user certain ranges may be considered abnormally high,it is not the same for one on AAS.

How do you figure from a health perspective?

 

[F.I.S.T.]

How do you figure?

How do I figure? This entire thread has been about this very thing.Your blood test results while cycling will be quite different than while not cycling, like your hematocrit levels that are being discussed. So while these raised levels may be a concern to a non steroid user,being on steroids makes them not so much of a concern and are actually expected.Thats how I figure as well as everyone else that posted the same thing here.

It seems that everyone agrees that while you may show some signs of a possible health issue while being on,by monitoring your blood tests they can easily be resolved.Also,as ive stated before these so called health risks will be greatly affected by your lifestyle,diet and training.Keep these things under control and you will find how easily your health risks turn into health benefits.And for me doing these things and even starting a daily aspirin regimen or even Viagra,you will find these elevated rbc's will be decreased.

 

[Glycomann]

How do I figure? This entire thread has been about this very thing.Your blood test results while cycling will be quite different than while not cycling, like your hematocrit levels that are being discussed. So while these raised levels may be a concern to a non steroid user,being on steroids makes them not so much of a concern and are actually expected.Thats how I figure as well as everyone else that posted the same thing here.

It seems that everyone agrees that while you may show some signs of a possible health issue while being on,by monitoring your blood tests they can easily be resolved.Also,as ive stated before these so called health risks will be greatly affected by your lifestyle,diet and training.Keep these things under control and you will find how easily your health risks turn into health benefits.And for me doing these things and even starting a daily aspirin regimen or even Viagra,you will find these elevated rbc's will be decreased.

Aspirin and viagra do not decrease RBCs but it's good that you don't have Hct in the 55% and up range to start with. Right, listen to your body. If you are over 40 and can use 2 grams of AAS without issues and you are reasonable and comfortable with your health markers then you may be OK albeit a rare case. Don't forget about your prostate, ekg and stress test as well. You don't want a coffee cake for a prostate or problematic cardiac hypertrophy and associated health issues. One thing is a bit striking in your responses. You allude to the notion that health markers for AAS users, while may be out of normal range, are normal for such users. That is a slippery slope and an area I can see becoming a rationalization zone.

 

[Benchingover500]

in hereditary polycythemia, the increase risk for mi's results from the increased viscosity of blood flow injuring the endo cells in the arteries causing artherosclerotic plaques to form. these plaques along with increased iron in the heart result in ht failure so when your plaques embolize due to being snagged by the increased viscosity you get an mi. these people have the process of setting the stage for an mi to for begin before they are 5 according to some studies. bottom line, the pathologies are different, but an aspirin a day is good.

 

[SFGiants]

Not only do I get to donate I also can donate 2 units 1 being specific for RBC.

I don't run major stupid doses my next blast is my 1st run with Tren it will be Tren A 350 week Test C 300mgs a week yes only that much test becuase I'm not stupid I listen and learn and understand this being my 1st Tren run it should be Ace and low and low on the test FOR LESS SIDES.

How the fuck am I going to know how my body can take tren on 2g's plus of test?

I think in my case every 4 months is a good option plus I do also have my doc monitor my blood.

This leads to another issues and that is people need to stop being pussy with your doc, if you don't trust your doc get one you do and monitor your blood!

Sorry for the rant/hijack but these are simple things dumb people let get by them I have a idiot of a friend that says only pussies monitor their blood and blood pressure well idiot friend I'll make sure to be at your funeral asshole.

 

[SAD]

I do run those doses and yes my rbc's will come back in the high "normal" range but this is easily combat-able through your training and diet.As you said 52% is in the high range but it considered "normal" high range.Now while for a non steroid user certain ranges may be considered abnormally high,it is not the same for one on AAS.

The bottom line is no matter what theory you wish to believe in or follow or live your life by,the main thing is how you react and knowing your own body and test results.By knowing these things you can easily keep track of anything that would be of concern and adjust accordingly.What I have learned through the yrs from not only myself but many that I know and have been involved with,know whats best for you,know how to read your bodies signals and constantly make changes to better suit your needs.By constantly having your blood work done,any possible health issues can be easily fixed.

Oh just to be clear,I didn't mean I never come off of deca or eq,I meant test only.I was only stating when I do run deca/eq they are never less than those doses.Test I am basically always on.

So you don't come off? I just read a thread where you said you "have and do use" nolva and clomid together for pct. How can I learn from your vast knowledge base and expertise if you can't keep your lies straight? How can any of us kiddy noobies trust what you say?

NOTE: Cannot continue to read the fictional personal anecdotes of a pathological liar in denial without saying my piece. It is irresponsible to allow one "reality-distorter's" viewpoint to influence those that want to rationalize away legitimate health risks. As is apparent by the dozens of thank yous to the OP, the original post was extremely helpful and this thread should NEVER have degraded into a pointless debate about AAS's safety.

Say what you want FIST, I won't respond again.

 

[Qwerty1424]

i think we go in circles lol...... get ur fucken blood work done and you will know how your body is responding to what you are putting into it.... everyone is different... we also can not speculate what the "pro's" use because each person is different.... im sure you find alot more people in the amateur levels of bodybuilding Abusing way more than pro's im sure AJ and other elite competitors on this site can confirm this... if u are worried about thickening of the blood there are ways to combat almost any side effect. Just like if you have a head ache u take something to fix it... well if you need blood thinners go to your doctor and he will fix it.... That is why most people that suffer from heart related problems usually are put on medication that thins there blood.

 

[gunslinger]

After all thats been said I guess I only have one thing to add. There are millions of people in the US alone who use/abuse steroids. In fact I'd say by medical standards we all "abuse" them. Anything over TRT dose is technically abuse. That being said, you would expect people, especially pros would be dropping left and right. Yet this is not the case at all. Instead we hear about the odd case now and then where someone was taking far beyond what is considered "normal" use even by our standards, and they had issues. This is really no different than any other meds.


Have per-existing health problems or bad genetics? Large doses of anabolics may not be for you. Its more of a common sense thing I think. Look at ephedra. You had a hand full of dipshits who took 100mg or more and then did a football game and their hearts blew up. So now ephed is the worst thing ever right? If someone could eat enough protein powder to make him shit himself to death you can bet your ass they would ban protein tomorrow or at least try to. It all comes down to common sense. Take mega doses for years you are more likely to have issues than if you do sane cycles.


As for AAS being safe. Let me put it this way. I know people who do 5-10 times the therapeutic dose of AAS for years with zero health issues. Name me an OTC med that you could take 5-10 times the therapeutic dose for weeks on end and live. Try that shit with Nyquil or Tylenol sometime.