Muhammad Ali dodges 21 punches in 10 seconds

[rawdeal]

One of many intriguing fantasy matchups in boxing. I don't pretend to know the answer, maybe it's different answers if they could have fought a 10 fight series. But I lean toward Ali, armed by 2 random thoughts:

1) We already had a preview of Ali - Tyson, and it was Ali - Frazier, 3 close fights, with Ali prevailing, slightly. To those who offer the rebuttal that Mike was a little bigger and stronger than Joe, I would remind them ( prime ) Foreman was bigger and stronger than anyone, before or since. ( yeah, today's Klit brothers are taller, but for sheer intimidating power, no comparison to prime George ). Foreman lost to Ali although he had demolished Frazier earlier, twice. Styles make fights, Ali beat Joe, barely, cause he was taller, smarter and faster. He had trouble with Joe cause Frazier was just as mentally strong as he was, albeit in a different way. Ali had no physical advantage over Foreman, but he won the battle of the minds.

2) Tyson - Douglas exposed Mike. He was still a formidable opponent, but he was no longer seen as invincible, by others, and by himself. Douglas became a joke later, but he was in the zone that night, and Mike's career was never the same.

Douglas' 15 minutes of fame, and resistance to the Tyson everyone thought was the irresistable force, was the kind of thing Ali did many times. THAT's why I lean toward Ali in this fantasy. Still woulda loved to see it though . . . . .

Pretty sure the entire world is on youtube, but it's difficult to find the jewels sometimes. GREAT find, CBS, I usually don't watch 57' long vids, but couldn't stop. Tired of seeing the former Bert Sugar(man) doing his Damon Runyan schtick, but fun to see Cus, Atlas and Kevin Rooney all in the same place, even Jose Torres. Eddie Futch, who was in Joe's corner, the underrated Holmes, man, great vid.

 

[CBS]

1) We already had a preview of Ali - Tyson, and it was Ali - Frazier, 3 close fights, with Ali prevailing, slightly.

Excellent summation, RD. And you're right, Ali-Frazier was as close to an Ali-Tyson match-up we've got. I'll just add that the Ali in the Ali-Frazier fights wasn't the Ali we saw in 1967. When he came back from his suspension, his amazing reflexes were noticeably diminished. While still great, he was forced to absorb blows that he could have easily avoided in the past.

That said, the loss of reflexes that led to Ali getting hit proved Ali could take a punch from the hardest punchers. Ali was never KO'd. Someone mentioned Tyson would win with a liver shot - Ali was pounded with body shots in the Thrilla in Manila. Ali's physician stated that after the fight Ali had giant hematomas on both hips and suffered permanent kidney damage. If Tyson did win, it wouldn't have come from a liver shot.

It's too bad boxing has declined so much. I'll take a good boxing match over the UFC anyday. I can appreciate the skill and conditioning needed for MMA but watching two grown men rolling around in their underwear isn't my cup of tea.

 

[rawdeal]

Must be a lot of old f_**s in here, lol. Careful about starting a boxing vs. mma discussion, CBS, we'll never win. I only half agree with that decline of boxing thing, it's mostly just declined in the mainstream media-and-public's perception. No more Ali and contemporaries, no more SRL, Hagler, Hearns, Duran, and no more Tyson vs his own bum-of-the-month club. I'm looking south now, in either sense of the word. Used to apply my fondness for size to boxing too, just HWT's and a few lighter divisions, but a growing appreciation for the warriors in lighter divisions now, and, for the most part, those who are neither euro- nor african- americans. just less posturing and trash talk, and more substance. I'm not super fond of Floyd, but he IS the obvious exception, both in the p4p rankings, and in the public$ perception. Boxing will survive in spite of the HBO/SHO shit and the Golden Boy/Top Rank shit, and the POS's like Spacehair King, but we might have to resume going out on barges beyond the 12 mile limit again, like my older brother did . . . . .

 

[rezjzzor084]

I like the idea in the 1st video you posted CBS: in the beginning they sit in a bar and discuss this topic - it's like watching this thread performed in a theatre:
"Mike Tyson vs Muhammad Ali Who Wins?"

...

...

that one's clearing aswell:

 

[69nites]

Excellent summation, RD. And you're right, Ali-Frazier was as close to an Ali-Tyson match-up we've got. I'll just add that the Ali in the Ali-Frazier fights wasn't the Ali we saw in 1967. When he came back from his suspension, his amazing reflexes were noticeably diminished. While still great, he was forced to absorb blows that he could have easily avoided in the past.

That said, the loss of reflexes that led to Ali getting hit proved Ali could take a punch from the hardest punchers. Ali was never KO'd. Someone mentioned Tyson would win with a liver shot - Ali was pounded with body shots in the Thrilla in Manila. Ali's physician stated that after the fight Ali had giant hematomas on both hips and suffered permanent kidney damage. If Tyson did win, it wouldn't have come from a liver shot.

It's too bad boxing has declined so much. I'll take a good boxing match over the UFC anyday. I can appreciate the skill and conditioning needed for MMA but watching two grown men rolling around in their underwear isn't my cup of tea.

Excellent Refrence.

After that fight ali said that he felt extremely close to death.

After being brutalized by Smokey Joe. Imagine if he was getting tenderized by Tyson.

I don't think one is necessary better than the other, but tyson was faster and more powerful than Smokey Joe. Tyson was also a more technical fighter.

I prefer to watch mma, but I am a boxer. How many fight tapes do you watch of Ali's and say this fight was technical perfection?

You can tell the boxers that took Ali as inspiration. Usually because they are getting hit with an ammonia capsule to wake their ass back up.

 

[CBS]

How many fight tapes do you watch of Ali's and say this fight was technical perfection?

For a technician, look no further than this man.

 

[wesleyinman]

This is awesome!! Super happy to see boxing fans here. I'm a huge huge huge boxing fan..and a former amateur boxer myself. Love boxing talk.

Miss the days with Tyson pay per view fights...Posting a rare Tyson video ASAP...

 

[Big_paul]

Rope a dope. Instead of getting pissed should went for some body shots. That is what Tyson would have done, hit him in the liver with a jackhammer then move to the head. I think it would have been a bad ass fight. Tyson vs. Ali. I don't think it would have been a given for Tyson either. Foreman had some serious power back in the day as well. Sucks what Don King did to boxing (and Tyson) in MY OPINION Tyson was the last of the super star boxers (the ones you debate whether it would be worth going in the ring for 1 mil when your a kid). If Cus had not died and Tyson had not got sucked in by King and Robin Givens etc... he would have had a hell of a career.

In the day, before being banned from boxing for refusing to be drafted, I don't think there has ever been a heavy weight boxer who could beat Ali. It comes down to style, Tyson had problems with guys who could move like Ali. Buster Douglas for one. I think foreman would have would have come out on top too.
Frazier vs Tyson, now that would have been brutal.

 

[graniteman]

I dunno...many say Sonny Liston threw the fight or more likely told to take a dive.

 

[rawdeal]

In the day, before being banned from boxing for refusing to be drafted, I don't think there has ever been a heavy weight boxer who could beat Ali. It comes down to style, Tyson had problems with guys who could move like Ali. Buster Douglas for one. I think foreman would have would have come out on top too.
Frazier vs Tyson, now that would have been brutal.

Yes . . . . and no? Back in the day, no one had ever seen a HWT who could move like that. Transpose Ali to today, and some of the fighters and trainers might have made the adjustments based on what his films had taught them.

Like you say, prime Foreman might have got him even then, if he had more wisdom, self-restraint, and sound strategy (a better corner?) than what we saw from his primitive self in "the Jungle." Also like you say, before Douglas' improbable upset win, we saw a few very minor blemishes on Tyson's intimidating record. He was undefeated until Douglas, and mostly by ko wins, but lesser lights like James Quick Tillis and Mitch Blood Green managed to go the distance, suggesting Tyson's force and Kevin Rooney's coaching could not solve all problems. Nevertheless, if Frazier can in many yrs worth of hindsight be considered Ali's nemesis (with a nod toward Ken Norton, btw), a prime Ali vs. prime Tyson match is the stuff that fuels barbershop and barroom debates for years, kinda like Mays-Mantle and Dimaggio-Williams in that other sport.

 

[graniteman]

Lennox Lewis would have destroyed Ali

 

[rawdeal]

Lennox Lewis would have destroyed Ali

Had the tools, doubtful about the "intangibles," however.