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Lots of conflicting info on HGC use.

hardbody

hardbody

Member
Mar 2, 2011
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5
OK, I have been reading alot about using hcg while on a cycle to prevent testicular degeneration/ atrophy. 250 iu's twice a week or 500iu's once a week. I have also read that if following the on cycle hCG protocol, hCG should NOT be used for PCT.

The recommendations are to drop hCG about the same time as your last AAS injection. The claim is it will allow for a sudden and even clearance in hormone levels, while initiating LH and FSH production from the pituitary, to begin stimulating your testes to produce testosterone.

This protocol also recommends 7-10 days before the onset of PCT in order to avoid inhibition of the Nolvadex and/or Clomid therapy.

Any thoughts on this?
 
SAD

SAD

TID Board Of Directors
Feb 3, 2011
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250iu twice per week will give a more steady stimulation to the ole boys, and less of an estrogen spike. And yes, never use HCG during PCT, it will only slow recovery and prohibit full recovery, due to the artificial LH/FSH stimulation. 7-10 days before PCT is probably a little too safe. You could get away with taking your last HCG pin about 4-5 days before PCT begins. I personally prefer to dose 250iu E5D throughout the cycle (starting at week 3) and then run it at 500iu/day for 7 days about 11-12 days before PCT begins. This keeps the boys as plump as ever, and makes PCT a little easier and quicker.
 
4

4thAD

Member
Jun 15, 2011
30
16
HCG is safe to run @ 500iu e3d, or 2xew pretty much indefinitely. Desensitization comes from high dosing, not from duration of use. Studies show that 500iu is the best dose for keeping the leydig alive and better recovery after steroid use.

Interesting read on HCG administration. John Crisler is a leading authority on TRT. I realize this is for TRT, but the theory is the same while running HCG on cycle as well.

AN UPDATE TO THE CRISLER HCG PROTOCOL

By John Crisler, DO



In my paper My Current Best Thoughts on How to Administer TRT for Men, published in A4Ms 2004/5 Anti-Aging Clinical Protocols, I introduced a new protocol where small doses of Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin (HCG) are regularly added to traditional TRT (either weekly IM testosterone cypionate or daily cream/gel). The reasons and benefits of this protocol are as follows, along with a new improvement I wish to share:

Any physician who administers TRT will, within the first few months of doing so, field complaints from their patients because they are now experiencing troubling testicular atrophy. Irrespective of the numerous and abundant benefits of TRT, men never enjoy seeing their genitals shrinking! Testicular atrophy occurs because the depressed LH level, secondary to the HPTA suppression TRT induces, no longer supports them. It is well known that HCG a Luteinizing Hormone (LH) analog will effectively, and dramatically, restore the testicles to previous form and function. It accomplishes this due to shared moiety between the alpha subunits of both hormones.

So, that satisfies an aesthetic consideration which should not be ignored. Now let's delve into the pharmacodynamics of the TRT medications. For those employing injectable
testosterone cypionate, the cypionate ester provides a 5-8 day half-life, depending upon the specific metabolism, activity level, and overall health of the patient. It is now well-established that appropriate TRT using IM injections must be dosed at weekly intervals, in order to avoid seating the patient on a hormonal, and emotional, roller coaster. Adding in some HCG toward the end of the weekly cycle compensates for the drop in serum androgen levels by the half-life of the cypionate ester. Certainly the body thrives on regularity, and supplementing the TRT with endogenous testosterone production at just the right time without inappropriately raising androgen OR estrogen (more on that later) approximates the excellent performance stability of transdermal testosterone delivery systems for those who, for whatever reason or reasons, prefer test cyp.

But there's another metabolic reason to employ this protocol. The P450 Side Chain Cleavage enzyme, which converts CHOL into pregnenolone at the initiation of all three metabolic pathways CHOL serves as precursor (the sex hormones, glucocorticoids and mineralcorticoids), is actively stimulated, or depressed, by LH concentrations. It is intuitively consistent that during conditions of lowered testosterone levels, commensurate increases in LH production would serve to stimulate this conversion from CHOL into these pathways, thereby feeding more raw material for increased hormone production. And vice versa. Thus the addition of HCG (which also stimulates the P450scc enzyme) helps restore a more natural balance of the hormones within this pathway in patients who are entirely, or even partially, HPTA-suppressed.

It is important that no more than 500IU of HCG be administered on any given day. There is only just so much stimulation possible, and exceeding that not only is wasteful, doing so has important negative consequences. Higher doses overly stimulate testicular aromatase, which inappropriately raises estrogen levels, and brings on the detrimental effects of same. It also causes Leydig cell desentization to LH, and we are therefore inducing primary hypogonadism while perhaps treating secondary hypogonadism. 250IU QD is an effective, and safe, dose. After all, we are merely replacing that which is lost to inhibition.

In my previous report I recommended 250IU of HCG twice per week for all TRT patients, taken the day of, along with the day before, the weekly test cyp injection. After looking at countless lab printouts, listening to subjective reports from patients, and learning more about HCG, I am now shifting that regimen forward one day. In other words, my test cyp TRT patients now take their HCG at 250IU two days before, as well as the day immediately previous to, their IM shot. All administer their HCG subcutaneously, and dosage may be adjusted as necessary (I have yet to see more than 350IU per dose required).

I made this change after realizing that the previous HCG protocol was boosting serum testosterone levels too much, as the test cyp serum concentrations rise, approaching its peak at roughly the 72 hour mark. The original goal of supporting serum androgen levels with HCG had overshot its mark.

Those TRT patients who prefer a transdermal testosterone, or even testosterone pellets (although I am not in favor of same), take their HCG every third day. They needn't concern themselves with diminishing serum androgen levels from their testosterone delivery system. These patients will, of course, notice an increase in serum androgen levels above baseline.

While HCG, as sole TRT, is still considered treatment of choice for hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism by many , my experience is that it just does not bring the same subjective benefits as pure testosterone delivery systems do even when similar serum androgen levels are produced from comparable baseline values. However, supplementing the more traditional TRT of transdermal, or injected, testosterone with HCG stabilizes serum levels, prevents testicular atrophy, helps rebalance expression of other hormones, and brings reports of greatly increased sense of well-being and libido. My patients absolutely love it. As time goes on, we are coming to appreciate HCG as a much more powerful--and wonderful--hormone than previously given credit.
 
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4

4thAD

Member
Jun 15, 2011
30
16
250iu twice per week will give a more steady stimulation to the ole boys, and less of an estrogen spike. And yes, never use HCG during PCT, it will only slow recovery and prohibit full recovery, due to the artificial LH/FSH stimulation. 7-10 days before PCT is probably a little too safe. You could get away with taking your last HCG pin about 4-5 days before PCT begins. I personally prefer to dose 250iu E5D throughout the cycle (starting at week 3) and then run it at 500iu/day for 7 days about 11-12 days before PCT begins. This keeps the boys as plump as ever, and makes PCT a little easier and quicker.


Agreed, due to the half life of HCG it's use should be discontinued 4 days prior to running PCT.
 

SHINE

Friends Remembered
Oct 11, 2010
5,047
601
But there's another metabolic reason to employ this protocol. The P450 Side Chain Cleavage enzyme, which converts CHOL into pregnenolone at the initiation of all three metabolic pathways CHOL serves as precursor (the sex hormones, glucocorticoids and mineralcorticoids), is actively stimulated, or depressed, by LH concentrations. It is intuitively consistent that during conditions of lowered testosterone levels, commensurate increases in LH production would serve to stimulate this conversion from CHOL into these pathways, thereby feeding more raw material for increased hormone production. And vice versa. Thus the addition of HCG (which also stimulates the P450scc enzyme) helps restore a more natural balance of the hormones within this pathway in patients who are entirely, or even partially, HPTA-suppressed.


Glad he added this to his latest hcg article, pregnenolone does a whole lot for mental health and brain function and like he stated the glucocorticoids and mineralcorticoids are out of balance and low with out LH or hcg added. Have that edgey burned out feeling on cycles ? Adding hcg will help to reduce that.

By the way Crisler (Swale) has worked with BB's to for pct purposes for many years as well, although his current focus is HRT.

M.Scally has good advice to imo.
 
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KBD

KBD

I Look Good...
Sep 13, 2010
2,312
107
Scally said to run 2000iu QOD if your very suppressed. However has there every been any cases of desensitization? Or is that just bro myths going around right now.

Ive heard of people cruising on HCG year round as TRT. Ive also heard of Tamox TRT.
 

SHINE

Friends Remembered
Oct 11, 2010
5,047
601
Scally said to run 2000iu QOD if your very suppressed. However has there every been any cases of desensitization? Or is that just bro myths going around right now.

Ive heard of people cruising on HCG year round as TRT. Ive also heard of Tamox TRT.

Desensitization is Fact and will always be different in each person, You can get away with 1500 to 2000iu shots for a while but leydig cell aromatase will eventualy increase with the bigger shots of hcg causing desensitization of the leydig cells if used to long. For PCT purposes and 2 wks or more it won't be that toxic at all.
 
KBD

KBD

I Look Good...
Sep 13, 2010
2,312
107
Desensitization is Fact and will always be different in each person, You can get away with 1500 to 2000iu shots for a while but leydig cell aromatase will eventualy increase with the bigger shots of hcg causing desensitization of the leydig cells if used to long. For PCT purposes and 2 wks or more it won't be that toxic at all.

So at those doses yes i could agree with that. But at 500-1000iu A WEEK i dont see it causing a problem.
 
MAYO

MAYO

Bad Mother
Sep 27, 2010
2,159
676
KBD, it varies with the individual. There are several guys in the TRT sub on Meso who 'burned' their leydigs using only maintenance doses...I believe one was as low as 250-500iu. It is something each individual should consider and approach carefully. Although these cases are the exception and not the norm, the fact is they still happen.
 
SJA

SJA

MuscleHead
Feb 24, 2011
611
92
I use my nuts as a guide. When cruising, sometimes it only requires 200iu's E4D or sometimes once per week. I've found that E3d EOW on TRT works well.......however, when "on", it seems that 250-300ius E3D are much more effective and make for a more rapid recovery during PCT
 
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