Liver Protection

[dr jim]

I've only seen it online guys. Amazon has raw powder for the best deal if u don't mind capsulating. Let me see if I have a few links. These guys are who I used last order.
https://www.mrsupps.com/includes/Products/102/TUDCA/

My good friend has a blood clotting disorder and they had her on cumadin(sp?) and it was trashing her liver. I had her using thistle and nac and they didn't let her liver values get worse but they didn't help as much as I had hoped. I have her using Tudca now but she hasn't gotten her labs again yet that I know of. I'll ask her tomorrow now that I think of all this.

I honestly hope you don't believe this "therapy' was helping her! For several reasons.

First Coumadin dose NOT cause hepatic injury. It's an anticoagulant which interferes with Vitamin K dependent clotting factors, many which are produced in the liver. Consequently there are several EFFECTIVE means of restoring clotting function !) Vit K supplementation 2) Discontinuing Coumadin therapy 3) and in severe cases with a active bleeding the administration of specific clotting factors.



Here's a medical article about its use
http://www.journals.elsevierhealth.com/periodicals/cuthre/article/PIIS0011393X05806599/abstract

For more info just google search Tudca

There are several studies which involve the use of Bile Acids such as UDCA and TUCDA for ESTABLISHED hepatic dysfunction and although these drugs have been shown to improve LFTs in the short run (your study followed patients for only 3 MONTHS) they DO NOT effect MORTALITY or improve overall hepatic dysfunction compared to placebo)

What does that mean? It means when patients of similar classifications are compared to those treated with a BA to those who are not, the death rate or time to transplant, does not change.

What has been revealed, is that the most reliable indicator of benefit from ANY HEPATITIS therapy is it's effect on viral load (number of viruses detected on serum analysis) and NOT transaminase levels. (Fact is many patients dying of cirrhosis actually improve their LFT's because the liver becomes "to SICK" to manufacture these enzymes)

BA "bind" excess serum bilirubin which may be responsible for a "secondary" hepatic insult. However they do NOT alter viral load.

There are several drugs especially if used in combination which are effective in treating patients with hepatitis such as: Beta Interferon and Protease Inhibitors. These drugs if used as directed do NOT "kill the liver" as you suggested earlier.

The fact is B-Interferon has CURED many patients with hepatitis-C, especially if a PI is added to the regimen. The reasoning, because much like in AIDS patients these drugs lower or ELIMINATE the viral load!

Regs
jim

 

[dr jim]

Maybe, but it's certainly not going to do you any harm and especially if it's ran with a good dose/quuality of milk thistle. No?

I've had clients (and myself) noticeably drop their ALT/AST values solely from NAC, but then there wasn't any AAS involved so I guess what you are saying still holds true in that regard.



Cheers for the info Jim, MF.

I really don't know WHY BB insist on treating some remote possibility which doubtfully exceeds that of having a couple beers every 1-2 days. I don't see those folks (drinkers) using MILK THISTLE, NAC or B. Acids as therapy even though the mechanism of injury is identical.

(PS how many patients have I seen in 20 years that developed severe HEPATIC INJURY from ISOLATED AAS use? ZIPPO, ZILTCH, ZERO, so why are we suggesting these drugs are needed? It's absurd IMO)

My "problem" with liver protection "therapy" is several fold

!) NO EVIDENCE SUPPORT'S THEIR EFFECTIVENESS

2) The well established therapy for cholestatic hepatic injury such as which occurs from ORAL AAS and ETOH use, is to DISCONTINUE THE OFFENDING AGENT

3) The only measure which is required for those using an ORAL AAS is judgment and involves understanding the BEST THERAPY....... simply limit the duration of use to NO MORE than six weeks with AT LEAST a six week hiatus thereafter. That's what should be emphasized IMO.

4) Even though these "sups" may not be harmful per say, they are drugs and are NOT free of side effects because they may be "natural".

6) They only ADD cost to an effective AAS cycle which many mates, (noobs or neophytes in particular) can ill afford.

For instance I have personal experience with some (including experienced BB) believing "liver protectors" were so important they had to forgo, intra-cycle AIs for symptomatic E-2 elevations, SERMS for gynecomastia and even PCT cost, and that isn't good.

regs
jim

 

[Fanofiron]

There are several studies which involve the use of Bile Acids such as UDCA and TUCDA for ESTABLISHED hepatic dysfunction and although these drugs have been shown to improve LFTs in the short run (your study followed patients for only 3 MONTHS) they DO NOT effect MORTALITY or improve overall hepatic dysfunction compared to placebo)

What does that mean? It means when patients of similar classifications are compared to those treated with a BA to those who are not, the death rate or time to transplant, does not change.

What has been revealed, is that the most reliable indicator of benefit from ANY HEPATITIS therapy is it's effect on viral load (number of viruses detected on serum analysis) and NOT transaminase levels. (Fact is many patients dying of cirrhosis actually improve their LFT's because the liver becomes "to SICK" to manufacture these enzymes)

BA "bind" excess serum bilirubin which may be responsible for a "secondary" hepatic insult. However they do NOT alter viral load.

There are several drugs especially if used in combination which are effective in treating patients with hepatitis such as: Beta Interferon and Protease Inhibitors. These drugs if used as directed do NOT "kill the liver" as you suggested earlier.

The fact is B-Interferon has CURED many patients with hepatitis-C, especially if a PI is added to the regimen. The reasoning, because much like in AIDS patients these drugs lower or ELIMINATE the viral load!

Regs
jim

Sorry I never meant to imply that interferon was not an effect cure for hepatitis. I also did not literally mean that it "kills" the liver. I was merely trying to show that it isharsh on the liver. Sorry but 2 of my immediate family members used interferon for hepatitis....it did work for hepatitis but their liver health and quality of life was not good when using it by any stretch!

Had they had Tudca available back then surely their health would have been far better then what it was.

 

[dr jim]

Sorry I never meant to imply that interferon was not an effect cure for hepatitis. I also did not literally mean that it "kills" the liver. I was merely trying to show that it isharsh on the liver. Sorry but 2 of my immediate family members used interferon for hepatitis....it did work for hepatitis but their liver health and quality of life was not good when using it by any stretch!

Had they had Tudca available back then surely their health would have been far better then what it was.

=====================================================
I'm seriously sorry for your loss!

And no doubt interferon has enumerable side effects. In fact some patients can NOT tolerate the range of systems involved, especially when combined with their potential severity.

However it's the best medicine can offer at providing a "cure" (no detectable viral counts at 6 month interval for ONE year).

What has decreased the severity of adverse effects in many patients is the addition of a Protease Inhibitor. The latter enables the interferon dose to be lowered considerably, compared to IF mono therapy.

While it is true BA do improve several of the prominent side effects often noted in patients with an elevated BILIRUBIN because of hepatic dysfunction (itching, nausea, vomiting, malaise primarily) unfortunately they do not decrease the viral load they don't effect outcome.

Respects
Jim

 

[Bionixx]

I use NAC, and Siliphos; thought about TUDCA and decided not to waste my money. But however GHRP-2 is a liver antiinflamatory and protectant. So I do 2ug/kg body weight right after taking 17-aa AAS's to protect the liver during 1st pass.

 

[f.r.a.n.k.]

I just run NAC or a NAC/ALA combo.
No sides...aside from a healthy liver.

Raw powder NAC made by Hard Rhino. Found on amazon.