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Day Trading or Long term?

JR Ewing

JR Ewing

MuscleHead
Nov 9, 2012
1,329
420
I didn't think we were bickering? Sorry if my passion for my favorite subject comes across a bit too intensely. I don't know or care about too many things, but this is one of 'em. :D

Did anybody catch the news from Microsoft that came out Friday morning? It looks like Ballmer is finally gonna retire - probably at the behest of many shareholders via Gates. The stock shot up on the news. Usually it's the opposite - a company's stock will tend to drop at least a little when something happens with the current CEO. :D

http://blogs.marketwatch.com/thetell/2013/08/23/steve-ballmer-can-buy-himself-27000-gold-watches-with-microsofts-rally-on-his-retirement/
 
graniteman

graniteman

MuscleHead
Dec 31, 2011
6,133
1,556
I have long had a bit of $ in GILD myself. Two of my other favorite biotechs are Onyx and DNDN - both have great cancer drugs. Biotechs tend to be very volatile also though, and should therefore be respected. I made small fortunes loading up on both for brief periods when Nexavar and Provenge were going through trials and approvals. I remember Onyx going from the low teens up into the upper twenties in the span of a day or two, and Dendreon going from like 5 or 6 up to about 25 pretty much overnight as well. But both companies also saw sharp selloffs once the news was fully digested by the market. It's generally best to take most profits off the table quickly in such situations with the smaller biotechs.

These emerging biotech companies are also good candidates for takeovers. I made another small fortune over the course of about a week and a half about 6 years ago when activist investor Carl Icahn forced another biotech to put itself on the auction block, and that company's stock (which had been stuck in the upper thirties) shot up to 57-58 during that time when it was announced that a large pharma co had bought them at that price.

Forgot to mention I purchased Pharmasett before GILD bought them out. That was a sweet lil deal, then GILS split and is still climbing. You still active with GILD? I still think they're about to catch fire again as they will be fda approved soon. I don't see Gilead being bought out lol.
On another note I see you've met my friend 2ez, the in house kibitzer!! lol
Let me know your thoughts JR, be interested in your outlook

Microsoft has stunk for so long it can't do anything but improve with the departure and new blood infused, hopefully
 
JR Ewing

JR Ewing

MuscleHead
Nov 9, 2012
1,329
420
Forgot to mention I purchased Pharmasett before GILD bought them out. That was a sweet lil deal, then GILS split and is still climbing. You still active with GILD? I still think they're about to catch fire again as they will be fda approved soon. I don't see Gilead being bought out lol.
On another note I see you've met my friend 2ez, the in house kibitzer!! lol
Let me know your thoughts JR, be interested in your outlook

Microsoft has stunk for so long it can't do anything but improve with the departure and new blood infused, hopefully


I definitely think GILD is still a great company.

Did you see what happened with one of the 2 other biotechs I'd mentioned back then? Onxy put itself up for sale a few weeks ago, and just got bought out. The stock has shot up quite a bit since I mentioned it several months ago. :D

Of course it's now too late to buy it. If you've owned it, it's time to sell.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/amgen-to-buy-onyx-in-deal-worth-104-billion-2013-08-26

http://bigcharts.marketwatch.com/qu...?symb=ONXX&insttype=Stock&freq=1&show=&time=7
 
Dex

Dex

VIP Member
Mar 30, 2011
1,511
210
I don't care about companies, I care about how the candlesticks setup.

I'm finding there's more money to be made shorting stocks than trying to buy on breakouts
 
JR Ewing

JR Ewing

MuscleHead
Nov 9, 2012
1,329
420
If that's working for you, more power to you. How often do you turn over your portfolio on average, if you don't mind me asking?

I don't really follow the technicals, because when you have fundamental changes such as improved or declining earnings, revenues, margins, P/E, PEG, ROE, etc - not to mention M &A activity, FDA decisions or other political factors, clinical trials, new innovations, bubbles, changes in economies and monetary policies, leveraging / de-leveraging, inflation / deflation, etc, etc - all that stuff will dictate things in the grand scheme.

I will always invest on fundamentals myself - whether buying, selling, shorting, etc. My own early experiences with relying on technicals taught me a good lesson or 2. I remember buying a company "trading in a channel" between 20 and 21 or whatever. Then something bad happened fundamentally with the company, and that "floor" where I bought just above 20 caved in and the stock dropped like a rock.

I remember another time about the same time shorting a stock for a similar reason. The company got a buyout offer or blew away earnings or something after the bell, and the stock rocketed WAY past its "ceiling". :D

I have been about 20% short the S&P index since Nov though. And so far I have been wrong. :D

And when "scalping", one thing I learned early on with a discount broker was that THEY were the "middle man" - not me. If a bid or ask showed one price, I'd have to pay them a bit of a markup, and I'd also have to wait longer. Those waits could cost me hundreds of dollars sometimes (on a trade of tens of thousands or perhaps even a few thousands) when markets were trading heavily and securities were moving rapidly in one direction. I soon realized that the only way I could truly try to "scalp" would be to spend several hundred bucks a month or whatever on a "direct access" system that plugged directly into the exchanges.

But it didn't take me long to realize for me (and most others), doing it more the way the worlds' best (Buffett, Icahn, Graham, Lynch, Yactman, Berkowitz, etc) do it works best over the long haul (years, decades, etc) with far less risk.
 
Dex

Dex

VIP Member
Mar 30, 2011
1,511
210
JR, I just started day trading a few months ago. I wait for stocks to setup and breakout of resistance or crack below a support. I rarely see a big gap up continue to breakout past premarket highs unless there's some serious momentum. Within the last 2 weeks I am profitable everyday. Anywhere from $250 - $2000 per day. I would like to average over $500 a day before I go full time. I took forward to Mondays and on Saturday I don't know what to do with myself.
 
C

C T J

Crossfit VIP
Jan 24, 2013
2,483
741
I trade price and IMO price comes before news. It's funny how often price comes down to a buy level for me,
I get in and pretty soon there's news coming out about this and that and price takes off in my favor.
I trade over ranges of bars. Usually 1 to 3 months worth of price levels and distributions in those prices.
I prefer thin tails in the supply/demand distribution curve and with fat tails, I usually expect up/down thrusts as the volume by price is packed in tighter.
So I wait for those to happen, usually seen as short squeezes and buy on the absorption into my level. Besides the 1-3 month range levels, I always check 6 month
and yearly levels on the daily and 3 year and 10 year levels on the weekly just to make sure I don't have any conflicts.
In the end, it's all about my trade and risk management techniques. Both the entry and the management of that entry
are two parts of the larger whole. Price discovery is also a key element in my trading strategy.
 
JR Ewing

JR Ewing

MuscleHead
Nov 9, 2012
1,329
420
JR, I just started day trading a few months ago. I wait for stocks to setup and breakout of resistance or crack below a support. I rarely see a big gap up continue to breakout past premarket highs unless there's some serious momentum. Within the last 2 weeks I am profitable everyday. Anywhere from $250 - $2000 per day. I would like to average over $500 a day before I go full time. I took forward to Mondays and on Saturday I don't know what to do with myself.

If you're seriously consistently making those returns consistently trading part time with limited experience, that's extremely impressive. I don't know what sort of percentage that is for you, but if you're able to do that on both the long and short side consistently for any length of time - and can continue such returns when the markets stop being so irrationally exuberant - you should consider doing it full time for a big hedge fund or firm like Goldman Sachs and make some HUGE $ off other people's $.

Do you always liquidate your positions at the end of each day of trading? I learned years ago that doing so greatly decreased my gains. Of course doing so can also avoid losses, but in general most big moves occur outside of market hours, which it sounds like you've figured out. If you think a stock is going to beat estimates or otherwise have something good to report (such as it putting itself up for sale), these things are usually reported outside of market hours. Same with bad news generally. So if you're not already long (or short) on the stock going into the after hours, you're SOL usually - the big move will have already been made before the bell the next day, and the stock will usually stagnate and perhaps even reverse itself a bit (profit-taking).

The best ways to play those things are to 1) already be long (or short) the security; or 2) have a way of getting into the markets before and after hours (such as direct access platforms), which are generally riskier times to trade in and of themselves; or 3) my favorite for high beta stocks is to buy both a put and a call ahead of earnings or some other expected event that will likely cause the stock to move a fair amount regardless of whether the news is good OR bad.

If the stock shoots up after hours on the news, the call (long option) is exercised, and you profit. The put is NOT exercised, and you are only out the small premium you paid for the put (much less risky than shorting, and ties up far less capital).

If the stock falls sharply, you exercise the put (the right to short the stock at its earlier higher price) and not the call. And you are only out the small premium you paid on the call option.

If you're ever making more than 40% a year consistently or even just averaging that over many years, you'll be outperforming the best hedge funds on earth, and I'm sure some funds, institutions, and wealthy individuals would be VERY interested in turning $ over to you to make them fortunes.


*EDIT - I see you say you've mainly been shorting. There's been so much irrational upside to the markets this year that it must be pretty tricky to find individual securities to short with consistent success. I mentioned earlier that I've had 20% of my $ in my main account short the S&P since Nov, and I'm still down mid to upper single digits on that portion of my portfolio.

Are you mainly or exclusively going long? Or are you going both long and short?

If you've been making that $ strictly on the long side, enjoy the bullishness we've had while it lasts. I don't know for sure how far down the markets will go, and if this recent correction is just a short term blip or not. But there's no doubt the markets will eventually turn bearish on a more grand scheme if and when the Fed stops printing $ and keeping rates artificially low - which it's no secret they've done at the behest of the White House.

I remember doing very well into the summer of '07. I recall making like 30% in one month trading that summer, and my head swole up like a pumpkin. But later in the summer, the markets started to change. M&A deals dried up, and some proposed deals fell through (along with stock prices of companies involved). Companies would report earnings and forecasts above market expectations, and their stocks would actually sell off. More and more companies actually started to miss earnings and crash hard, etc, etc.
 
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C

C T J

Crossfit VIP
Jan 24, 2013
2,483
741
That's awesome, Dex. It took me almost 3 years to become a breakeven trader.
The last 2 and half years I've spent stacking though. There's just so much to learn
and understand and most of it is about yourself. Patience and discipline are huge.
I already had those from bodybuilding and thought it would transition well into
trading but I had to rewire the way I thought in order to become successful.
Ego is another one and most struggle with this one big time. I see it every day in the
forums and most of these guys are joe schmoe retail and they get worked but
they will never admit it. I learned that when you are doing well you just don't care.
I talk about my losses just like I talk about my winners. Good trades are not always winners.
Taking a loser when you should is also a good trade. some winners are not good trades either
as most ignore their R and take too much drawdown. Just 1 trade away from blowing their account,
everyday.
 
Dex

Dex

VIP Member
Mar 30, 2011
1,511
210
That's a lot to reply to so hopefully I can answer everything.

I am making those returns now but I've had a good learning curve of a few months. I've lost $1,200 in one day before. I have learned patience and that's why I have been more successful recently. I wait for clear setups.

I never really hold anything overnight. I'm not experienced enough to do "swing trades" and feel comfortable. If a stock closes strong I may consider it but to be honest I have only held LQMT. It paid off really well but doing that causes too much stress. So yes, I always liquidate before the day ends. Most the time I'm in and out of a trade within 5-10min. Shorts on the other hand take a little more time.

Speaking of stress, I feel shorting stocks is more stress free for me. Did you see the markets today? You could have shorted anything and made money. JC Penney (JCP) caught my attention today because of the breakout it had even with Ackman selling his 18% AND Citi was selling shares at 12.90 I believe. I shorted at 13.80 and rode it down to 13.40 before I thought it leveled out for a bounce. Unfortunately in my little experience I didn't wait it out to 13.10! Today I only made $400 because the market sucked but at least I made some money.

I've never used Puts and Calls but I'll need to look into it now.

I'm going to continue to day trade for another month or two before I quit my day job. I'd be very happy with $500 a day average. I usually only risk 1000-2000 shares per transaction now but will do more when I'm comfortable. I also still need work on finding stocks and not missing out on bigger plays.
 
Dex

Dex

VIP Member
Mar 30, 2011
1,511
210
That's awesome, Dex. It took me almost 3 years to become a breakeven trader.
The last 2 and half years I've spent stacking though. There's just so much to learn
and understand and most of it is about yourself. Patience and discipline are huge.
I already had those from bodybuilding and thought it would transition well into
trading but I had to rewire the way I thought in order to become successful.
Ego is another one and most struggle with this one big time. I see it every day in the
forums and most of these guys are joe schmoe retail and they get worked but
they will never admit it. I learned that when you are doing well you just don't care.
I talk about my losses just like I talk about my winners. Good trades are not always winners.
Taking a loser when you should is also a good trade. some winners are not good trades either
as most ignore their R and take too much drawdown. Just 1 trade away from blowing their account,
everyday.

Patience was the key for me. I would get anxious and get in on trades I knew were gambling because I missed another one or was bored. I have learned to walk away from the computer and basically stay away from any trades within the first 5-10 minutes of the day. I have learned from other people so I haven't had to figure this out all on my own. The learning curve happens a lot quicker that way haha

I also learned not to chase stocks. I will chase on the condition the stock moves dollars and not cents
 
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JR Ewing

JR Ewing

MuscleHead
Nov 9, 2012
1,329
420
A day like today would have been a good day to be short for sure:

http://bigcharts.marketwatch.com/quickchart/quickchart.asp?symb=DJIA&insttype=Index&freq=9&show=&time=1

Of course if you're looking for the quick profit, there's always the challenge of trying to figure out from moment to moment intraday which direction things will go from here once you've made a decision to go in a certain direction with something. If the Dow opens up -100 from yesterday, will it continue to go down another 50, 100, or 200 points? Or will the big dogs see it as a buying opportunity and push the market back up towards positive territory? Will there be massive short covering before the day is over, or news that changes the direction of the markets, etc?
 
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