Pro-biotics: Fact, fiction, or farce!

[Enasni]

Just to be a little contrary here, if you had an 'unhealthy' gut, and by this I mean maybe prolonged exposure to medication that changed your 'normal' bacteria somewhat, could this affect your normal immune response at all?

 

[shortz]

The GI track is partially responsible for your immune system. I would assume if you have an unhealthy GI system, then doing things to improve your GI function could improve your immune system

 

[BrotherIron]

I don't see how it's that difficult to put points a and b together. The gut does have an impact on the immune system (even if it's a small impact it's an impact none the less) and PB can positively effect the gut therefore having a positive impact on the immune system.

 

[Joliver]

Just to be a little contrary here, if you had an 'unhealthy' gut, and by this I mean maybe prolonged exposure to medication that changed your 'normal' bacteria somewhat, could this affect your normal immune response at all?

I had surgery a few months ago and ended up "looking like infection was setting in" and took 3 weeks of antibiotics....I got thrush. Fun stuff that thrush is....really impeded my "social life." So I suppose the answer to your question is yes.

 

[PillarofBalance]

I had surgery a few months ago and ended up "looking like infection was setting in" and took 3 weeks of antibiotics....I got thrush. Fun stuff that thrush is....really impeded my "social life." So I suppose the answer to your question is yes.

Mmmmmmmm tongue cheese

 

[dr jim]

Just to be a little contrary here, if you had an 'unhealthy' gut, and by this I mean maybe prolonged exposure to medication that changed your 'normal' bacteria somewhat, could this affect your normal immune response at all?

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Well sort of Enasni. The gut flora is a dynamic system with some bacteria being more dominant in one location and others elsewhere.

For instance close to 95% of "normal" intestinal bacteria are located in the 3-4 foot segment commonly referred to as the colon or large intestine.

Nonetheless if the large intestine flora are significantly suppressed other organisms may overpopulate that region, and this is exactly what Joliver experienced.

Understand he did NOT develop canidiasis because of some immune altered state from prolonged ABX use.

So it's really hard to legitimately stretch this idea of GI antigen/antibody exposure which in some way is supposed to alters one's immune status or function.

Why is it no one speaks of the LUNGS as a part of the immune system? I mean duh which system is responsible for combating the majority of contagious disease? The GUT,,,,,,,, try again

Good questions ENASNI.

regs
jim

 

[shortz]

So it's really hard to legitimately stretch this idea of GI antigen/antibody exposure which in some way is supposed to alters one's immune status or function.

Why is it no one speaks of the LUNGS as a part of the immune system? I mean duh which system is responsible for combating the majority of contagious disease? The GUT,,,,,,,, try again

regs
jim

Ok, now I have to disagree because I think you're arguing two things here. First, if we are talking strictly about the immune system, yes, the GI has a very large impact. If we are talking defenses against disease, then that phrase would make the respiratory system at the top, easily. We're talking pathogens here though, which takes cilia, mucus, nose follicles, etc all out of the equation.

I agree with the rest of what you said though.

 

[dr jim]

Ok, now I have to disagree because I think you're arguing two things here. First, if we are talking strictly about the immune system, yes, the GI has a very large impact. If we are talking defenses against disease, then that phrase would make the respiratory system at the top, easily. We're talking pathogens here though, which takes cilia, mucus, nose follicles, etc all out of the equation.

I agree with the rest of what you said though.

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Define the immune system? The GI tract is exposed to pathogens and non-pathogens on a daily basis and does that some how make this bacterial breeding ground a part of the immune system, hardly.

For some unknown reason someone finally realized the GI tract has lymphocytes that are capable of antigen/antibody interactions and that fact now qualifies it as a part of the immune system, if that is the case than so is every other organ in the body, from the lungs with alveolar macrophages to the mouth with salivary IgA antibodies.

The key feature of the immune system is the inception, development, maturation, and reproduction of various cell lines that are capable of protecting the host from environmental pathogens. It must also be capable of antigen/antibody interaction and "store" that information for future cell line development. The primary foci for this processes is the bone marrow aided by the lymphatics, spleen and LIVER.

There are GI tract auto-immune diseases but the evidence strongly suggests the inciting event begins in the bone marrow and then moves to the GI tract for unknown reasons. Fact is this very process is known to occur in Rheumatoid Arthritis, SLE, Diabetic patients. Are we to the say the joints or pancreas are now a part of the immune system?

Let's not confuse autoimmune pathological process which are an outward manifestation of a dysfunctional immune system, the bone marrow in particular, with specific organs becoming "antigenic" for unknown reasons. The latter is well known to occur in many autoimmune diseases.

The bottom line, just because an organ or organ system has important immune interactions, many of them being passive, does not mean or qualify it as a component of the immune system.

All that being said I don't believe the nomenclature really matters.

Respects
Jim

 

[shortz]

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Define the immune system? The GI tract is exposed to pathogens and non-pathogens on a daily basis and does that some how make this bacterial breeding ground a part of the immune system, hardly.

For some unknown reason someone finally realized the GI tract has lymphocytes that are capable of antigen/antibody interactions and that fact now qualifies it as a part of the immune system, if that is the case than so is every other organ in the body, from the lungs with alveolar macrophages to the mouth with salivary IgA antibodies.

The key feature of the immune system is the inception, development, maturation, and reproduction of various cell lines that are capable of protecting the host from environmental pathogens. It must also be capable of antigen/antibody interaction and "store" that information for future cell line development. The primary foci for this processes is the bone marrow aided by the lymphatics, spleen and LIVER.

There are GI tract auto-immune diseases but the evidence strongly suggests the inciting event begins in the bone marrow and then moves to the GI tract for unknown reasons. Fact is this very process is known to occur in Rheumatoid Arthritis, SLE, Diabetic patients. Are we to the say the joints or pancreas are now a part of the immune system?

Let's not confuse autoimmune pathological process which are an outward manifestation of a dysfunctional immune system, the bone marrow in particular, with specific organ becoming antigenic for unknown reasons. The latter is well known to occur in many autoimmune diseases.

The bottom line, just because an organ or organ system has important immune interactions, many of them being passive, does not mean or qualify it as a component of the immune system.

All that being said I don't believe the nomenclature really matters.

Respects
Jim

it seems the debate keeps getting side tracked and we are now arguing semantics.

So, let me just ask these questions.

1. Do you believe the GI track plays a large role in our immune system?
2. Do you believe GI health can effect our over all health and resilience to illnesses?

Jim, I normally agree with a lot of what you say on the board, and I have a lot of respect for your knowledge, however, I think you're starting to argue a very simple concept with very sophisticated and complicated semantics.

 

[dr jim]

it seems the debate keeps getting side tracked and we are now arguing semantics.

So, let me just ask these questions.

1. Do you believe the GI track plays a large role in our immune system?
2. Do you believe GI health can effect our over all health and resilience to illnesses?

Jim, I normally agree with a lot of what you say on the board, and I have a lot of respect for your knowledge, however, I think you're starting to argue a very simple concept with very sophisticated and complicated semantics.

"---------______

Yep your right I got sidetracked apologies Shortz.

1) Is the GI tract involved in immune interactions yes, does it play a significant role yes BUT that role has become more and more exaggerated over the past 10 years especially when compared to others organs or organ systems and it's my OPINION the reason for this over emphasis, is product sales especially of supplements.

2) Absolutely

I don't believe it's mere coincidence patients with total LARGE BOWEL resection can and do live a perfectly normal life and are not considered "immune compromised" even thought he large bowel contains close to 95% of the GI flora.

What then is so important about the GI tract which has well established immune capabilities. the liver! That's where immune modulation primarily occurs yet I don't hear the media say much about that?

My point again, the media or whatever reason has made "gut health" in vogue, yet IMO it's much to do about nothing for the overwhelming majority of people.

Oh yea I will also admit everyone on this thread is using PBs for an reasonably well established medical benefit.

Respects Shortz
Jim

 

[shortz]

"---------______

Yep your right I got sidetracked apologies Shortz.

1) Is the GI tract involved in immune interactions yes, does it play a significant role yes BUT that role has become more and more exaggerated over the past 10 years especially when compared to others organs or organ systems and it's my OPINION the reason for this over emphasis, is product sales especially of supplements.

2) Absolutely

I don't believe it's mere coincidence patients with total LARGE BOWEL resection can and do live a perfectly normal life and are not considered "immune compromised" even thought he large bowel contains close to 95% of the GI flora.

What then is so important about the GI tract which has well established immune capabilities. the liver! That's where immune modulation primarily occurs yet I don't hear the media say much about that?

My point again, the media or whatever reason has made "gut health" in vogue, yet IMO it's much to do about nothing for the overwhelming majority of people.

Oh yea I will also admit everyone on this thread is using PBs for an reasonably well established medical benefit.

Respects Shortz
Jim

Ok, I see your argument and I agree. I think we have also come so far away from our "GI friendly diets" that we had many years ago, that a lot of our GI issues could be fixed by simply going back to eating the way we should. When we do this, our improved GI function can make us feel tons better and have a large impact on our over all well being, health, energy etc. When I had my gastritis, I was blown away by how crappy I felt. It put me out of commission from many things I enjoyed doing and just didn't have the energy to do much of anything else. So I fully understand how our GI systems can make us feel better or worse based on how we treat it.

That said, I have not done the research on how much it effects our immune systems, nor have I researched the amount that it can be improved by with different methods. I just know that there is a relationship there and that the GI track does play a significant enough role to at least consider its affects.

(I hope I got Effects/affects in the right context. It's the two words I have the most troubl with and am too lazy to check it)

 

[ketsugo]

I'm huge believer of probiotics myself , just from years of exoerience training - we need to be able to train hard day after day. Therefore our bodies beyond bodybuilding need to be there for us- we can't allow a cold or flu or bowel problem to slow us down . This basic level of health is the foundation in which all hard work is supported . So bravo DR J- great idea post up . People need to realize that with out a properly functioning body we can not transcend to great ness . I'm with ya on this one.

I use capsules plus I use sugar free kefir- as I hit 50 last week. I still train several hours day - 1-2 weights, 2-8 combat training that can also be broken dine into training areas to respect recovery . Plus all my injuries I've recovered from over years still pay homages / as we get older we need to condition our recovery and nervous system to handle training . Personally I don't see using chemicals either as unhealthy or cheating if one respects their power and limits. Recovery and rest are key concepts that have many levels . Again to me probiotics help keep me going steady helps my system keep stable by evacuating waste, toxins, assisting in assimilation of nutrients . I think especially diets and cycles we bodybuilders and power athletes use require the extra edge provided by probiotics