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Wrong about diets

CJ Smalls

CJ Smalls

Member
Aug 15, 2020
41
36
And peds?
At the time it was just TRT, so about 150mg/wk.

It's not uncommon for followers of any nutrition plan to be lean or overweight. There's chubby vegans, there's skinny vegans. There's chubby keto followers, there are skinny keto followers. It all comes down to Cals in vs out FIRST, if you don't have that right, macros don't matter all that much.

You're the carnivore guy, correct? Try my experiment.... Eat the exact foods that you're eating right now, but triple the amount. Let's see if you don't gain some unwanted weight.
 
testboner

testboner

VIP Member
Oct 10, 2010
617
455
At the time it was just TRT, so about 150mg/wk.

It's not uncommon for followers of any nutrition plan to be lean or overweight. There's chubby vegans, there's skinny vegans. There's chubby keto followers, there are skinny keto followers. It all comes down to Cals in vs out FIRST, if you don't have that right, macros don't matter all that much.

You're the carnivore guy, correct? Try my experiment.... Eat the exact foods that you're eating right now, but triple the amount. Let's see if you don't gain some unwanted weight.
“Carbs in Carbs out” ad infinitum…. is INCORRECT. Macros do matter. You have a lot of research left to do (contrary to establishment dogma). I’ve recommended several resources numerous times: Paul Saladino most accessible and prolific — look him up on YouTube and most social media platforms. Or read his book; The Carnivore Code.

Yes, I’m carnivore. So far as your recommendation, done it already. 6000+ cals and some training tweaks, I was leaner than my maintenance
intake of 3500-4000 cals now as my norm.
 
testboner

testboner

VIP Member
Oct 10, 2010
617
455
At the time it was just TRT, so about 150mg/wk.

It's not uncommon for followers of any nutrition plan to be lean or overweight. There's chubby vegans, there's skinny vegans. There's chubby keto followers, there are skinny keto followers. It all comes down to Cals in vs out FIRST, if you don't have that right, macros don't matter all that much.

You're the carnivore guy, correct? Try my experiment.... Eat the exact foods that you're eating right now, but triple the amount. Let's see if you don't gain some unwanted weight.
For certain, your cals weren’t 5000 including things like Ben and Jerry’s while on just 150mg test while you were getting leaner. Unless previous to that you were eating nothing but Ben and Jerry’s and were fat as fuck.
 
CJ Smalls

CJ Smalls

Member
Aug 15, 2020
41
36
For certain, your cals weren’t 5000 including things like Ben and Jerry’s while on just 150mg test while you were getting leaner. Unless previous to that you were eating nothing but Ben and Jerry’s and were fat as fuck.
What I said is 100% accurate, and no I was not fat prior. Activity increased, so calories had to increase accordingly, as calories are a measure of energy.

A pint of B&Js was an easy 1200 Cals to get down. PB Fudge Core was my favorite.

Over 7 years on nonstop tracking on MFP. Digital scale, measuring cups and spoons used, no guessing....except for the occasional meal out. And those are very infrequent.
 
CJ Smalls

CJ Smalls

Member
Aug 15, 2020
41
36
“Carbs in Carbs out” ad infinitum…. is INCORRECT. Macros do matter. You have a lot of research left to do (contrary to establishment dogma). I’ve recommended several resources numerous times: Paul Saladino most accessible and prolific — look him up on YouTube and most social media platforms. Or read his book; The Carnivore Code.

Yes, I’m carnivore. So far as your recommendation, done it already. 6000+ cals and some training tweaks, I was leaner than my maintenance
intake of 3500-4000 cals now as my norm.
CALORIES in vs out, not carbs. If I implied that, I did not mean to. I do believe macros are somewhat important, specifically protein, and the carbs to fats ratio/timing depending upon activity, but where we seem to disagree is if calories matter.

It seems like you don't believe that they exist, that they're not a measure of energy available in the foods we eat. If I'm wrong on that, where do you think the excess energy goes if for example one eats 8,000 Cals(extreme,i know) of the perfect macros in your eyes, but isn't very active and doesn't need nearly that much energy?

And I don't doubt that you got leaner eating more, as I have done it myself. About a decade ago, I was trying to lose some excess weight, so I started eating the 2k calories per day you see recommended on the back of nutrition labels. I got skinny fat, because I wasn't training properly, I was tired from work, and generally pretty inactive.

I started educating myself, ate better, more calories, more activity, and it kept building upon itself. My activity level kept increasing, and my calorie requirements increased alongside.
 
CJ Smalls

CJ Smalls

Member
Aug 15, 2020
41
36
And how to you reconcile that there's both skinny and overweight people on every diet?

The solution to the obesity epidemic isn't to just eat meats. Can that work? Absolutely!!! You're an example.

But there are also plenty of people who are lean that eat a boat load of carbohydrate, which is contrary to what you're saying.

The common denominator though..... Is activity level.
 
testboner

testboner

VIP Member
Oct 10, 2010
617
455
What I said is 100% accurate, and no I was not fat prior. Activity increased, so calories had to increase accordingly, as calories are a measure of energy.

A pint of B&Js was an easy 1200 Cals to get down. PB Fudge Core was my favorite.

Over 7 years on nonstop tracking on MFP. Digital scale, measuring cups and spoons used, no guessing....except for the occasional meal out. And those are very infrequent.
We can agree on the point that pb fudge is fucking delicious!
 
testboner

testboner

VIP Member
Oct 10, 2010
617
455
CALORIES in vs out, not carbs. If I implied that, I did not mean to. I do believe macros are somewhat important, specifically protein, and the carbs to fats ratio/timing depending upon activity, but where we seem to disagree is if calories matter.

It seems like you don't believe that they exist, that they're not a measure of energy available in the foods we eat. If I'm wrong on that, where do you think the excess energy goes if for example one eats 8,000 Cals(extreme,i know) of the perfect macros in your eyes, but isn't very active and doesn't need nearly that much energy?

And I don't doubt that you got leaner eating more, as I have done it myself. About a decade ago, I was trying to lose some excess weight, so I started eating the 2k calories per day you see recommended on the back of nutrition labels. I got skinny fat, because I wasn't training properly, I was tired from work, and generally pretty inactive.

I started educating myself, ate better, more calories, more activity, and it kept building upon itself. My activity level kept increasing, and my calorie requirements increased alongside.
Calories do reflect a means of measure of energy, in a technical sense.
However, “a calorie is a calorie” so far as energy expenditure, composition, water retention, metabolic processes and a myriad of other realities render the overly simplistic and dogmatic statement invalid.

Our metabolic rate varies WIDELY based on a variety of factors — not just our level of physical activity. PEDS drastically alter the caloric equation as well (obviously).

We’re on the same page in some respects, and a mile apart on others. I’m sure at least in part this is because we each have various ideas of different examples in mind that don’t translate to our posts adequate enough.
 
DungeonDweller

DungeonDweller

VIP Member
Mar 21, 2017
1,235
963
Rich Piana often bragged about eating a pint of Ben and Jerry's every night. You can eat empty calories and not get fat if you are burning those calories (and don't have a Carrageenan allergy).

Piana Ben and Jerrys.jpg
 
Bigtex

Bigtex

VIP Member
Aug 14, 2012
914
1,328
Dear bro's (TB and ST),

So, lets say a person eats simple carbs all day long but they keep the total calories below their deficit for metabolic rate....Will they not be able to burn fat due to their insulin staying spiked through the day even tho they are in a deficit?....
You guys do ask some very thought-provoking questions. The question on sugar got me thinking……can you burn fat if all you eat is sugar?

Lipolysis – the breakdown of fat stores

First, let’s talk about what process the body goes through when we eat. When your energy needs increase or your blood glucose level fall, the production of hormones that mobilize your energy stores begins to rise. These hormones -- such as glucagon and adrenalin -- stimulate lipolysis, which involves the breakdown of triglycerides stored in your fat tissue. The fatty acids and glycerol molecules liberated by lipolysis are then metabolized to generate energy to meet your needs. The hormones that oppose insulin and stimulate lipolysis are called glucose counter-regulatory hormones. So again, it is not all or none when it comes to blood glucose levels. It is more of a checks and balances system where when insulin starts to fall, glucagon, adrenalin, ghrelin, even hGH levels start to rise, leptin levels fall. When insulin levels start to rise glucagon, adrenalin, ghrelin and hGH start to fall while leptin starts to rise. This is a very complicated system and certainly not limited to these hormones as we have not even disccussed satiety/hunger or micronutrients involved in the production of these hormones. Further more, both adipocytokines and thyroid hormone may be affected by energy balance and body weight.

Here is zomething to keep in mindin this process and in fasting…….as blood sugar levels fall glucagon and adrenalin rise along with hGH. This protects the body against muscle loss during starvation and also give you a boost of energy in hopes if finding more food.

What is Insulin?

Insulin is secreted from pancreatic cells in response to rising levels of glucose in your bloodstream. The consumption of food -- particularly proteins and carbohydrates -- prompts the release of insulin from your pancreas. Note I did say proteins? Which is why a ketogenic diet is not high in protein. In fact, a well done keto diet consists of 20% of your total calories or less protein or 1.2 - 2g/kg. Excesses will go through gluconeogenesis to produce glucose kicking you out of ketosis. Now granted this process takes a little more time and more energy but excesses still get turned to glucose and stored as body fat.

So in short, carbohydrates are meant to provide the human body with an immediate source of energy for work. When we eat lots of carbs and sit on our ass doing nothing, this energy is then stored as fat. There lies the problem the world has with rising obesity and diabetes. We are eating enough carbs to provide the energy or a highly trained athlete but sitting on our ass playing video games.

Back to sugar…..sugar is called sucrose and is a disaccharide, a molecule composed of two monosaccharides. Because of the very short chemical chain it is broken down very quickly and absorbed in the blood very quickly. This causes a rapid rise in insulin which quickly clears the sugar from the blood and then there is a very rapid decrease in insulin. The whole process takes from mouth to blood around 30 minutes. So, unless you have a continuous feed of sugar 24/7 you are still going to quickly enter a fasted phase where blood sugar drops, glucagon, adrenalin ghrelin and hGH rise causing the body to once again oxidize fat stores for energy. So, can eating sugar cause lipolysis to shut down? It all depends on how frequently you eat sugar and how much energy you take in from eating sugar. Once the body is low on energy, it always breaks down stores to provide the energy.

Just a note on Dr Fung. He seems to be very basic on his information and explains things is a very simple way. Good information for the most part, but a "EXPERT" he is not. My wife has been listening to this guy for a few years.
 
testboner

testboner

VIP Member
Oct 10, 2010
617
455
You guys do ask some very thought-provoking questions. The question on sugar got me thinking……can you burn fat if all you eat is sugar?

Lipolysis – the breakdown of fat stores

First, let’s talk about what process the body goes through when we eat. When your energy needs increase or your blood glucose level fall, the production of hormones that mobilize your energy stores begins to rise. These hormones -- such as glucagon and adrenalin -- stimulate lipolysis, which involves the breakdown of triglycerides stored in your fat tissue. The fatty acids and glycerol molecules liberated by lipolysis are then metabolized to generate energy to meet your needs. The hormones that oppose insulin and stimulate lipolysis are called glucose counter-regulatory hormones. So again, it is not all or none when it comes to blood glucose levels. It is more of a checks and balances system where when insulin starts to fall, glucagon, adrenalin, ghrelin, even hGH levels start to rise, leptin levels fall. When insulin levels start to rise glucagon, adrenalin, ghrelin and hGH start to fall while leptin starts to rise. This is a very complicated system and certainly not limited to these hormones as we have not even disccussed satiety/hunger or micronutrients involved in the production of these hormones. Further more, both adipocytokines and thyroid hormone may be affected by energy balance and body weight.

Here is zomething to keep in mindin this process and in fasting…….as blood sugar levels fall glucagon and adrenalin rise along with hGH. This protects the body against muscle loss during starvation and also give you a boost of energy in hopes if finding more food.

What is Insulin?

Insulin is secreted from pancreatic cells in response to rising levels of glucose in your bloodstream. The consumption of food -- particularly proteins and carbohydrates -- prompts the release of insulin from your pancreas. Note I did say proteins? Which is why a ketogenic diet is not high in protein. In fact, a well done keto diet consists of 20% of your total calories or less protein or 1.2 - 2g/kg. Excesses will go through gluconeogenesis to produce glucose kicking you out of ketosis. Now granted this process takes a little more time and more energy but excesses still get turned to glucose and stored as body fat.

So in short, carbohydrates are meant to provide the human body with an immediate source of energy for work. When we eat lots of carbs and sit on our ass doing nothing, this energy is then stored as fat. There lies the problem the world has with rising obesity and diabetes. We are eating enough carbs to provide the energy or a highly trained athlete but sitting on our ass playing video games.

Back to sugar…..sugar is called sucrose and is a disaccharide, a molecule composed of two monosaccharides. Because of the very short chemical chain it is broken down very quickly and absorbed in the blood very quickly. This causes a rapid rise in insulin which quickly clears the sugar from the blood and then there is a very rapid decrease in insulin. The whole process takes from mouth to blood around 30 minutes. So, unless you have a continuous feed of sugar 24/7 you are still going to quickly enter a fasted phase where blood sugar drops, glucagon, adrenalin ghrelin and hGH rise causing the body to once again oxidize fat stores for energy. So, can eating sugar cause lipolysis to shut down? It all depends on how frequently you eat sugar and how much energy you take in from eating sugar. Once the body is low on energy, it always breaks down stores to provide the energy.

Just a note on Dr Fung. He seems to be very basic on his information and explains things is a very simple way. Good information for the most part, but a "EXPERT" he is not. My wife has been listening to this guy for a few years.
A good post Tex. Thank you for posting it. It’s useful for all readers.
A couple comments; carbs (not simply glucose / “simple carbs”) come in many forms — some natural and others anything but natural. ALL carbs (dextrose, sucrose, fructose, etc….) go through various conversion processes eventually making glucose. The various substrates have differing actions though.
Far more in-depth than “simple carbs” and “complex carbs.” And far more in-depth than simply low and high glycemic.
The amount and rate at which insulin rises and falls varies RADICALLY!
And in the state of health (lack of health) that most Americans are in; insulin resistant / pre-diabetic and diabetic, along with the common frequency of consumption from morning into evening — insulin levels seldom drop into a normal range for the avg American.

Also, ancestrally, carbs aren’t much of a species appropriate macro. They aren’t common in nature (basically they weren’t globally available, and they were seasonal). What is common are fats (most abundantly saturated) and protein.
Being that carbs are technically a non-essential macro nutrient —non essential because we don’t have to exogenously ingest them to produce our body’s minimum need (because of processes like gluconeogenesis),an animal based diet (example: beef, fish, organs) is the most natural / species appropriate way of nourishment.
Excessive carb consumption came about only in fairly recent history. To the extent (and types) consumed, it’s highly unnatural.

So far as Fung as an “expert,” in a certain respect he is. He’s a nephrologist (as you’re aware) treating metabolic conditions daily in his practice, primarily via nutrition. Has written books on diet and nutrition and fasting, and a diligent researcher of nutrition and metabolic studies, etc. He qualifies as an “expert” of sorts.

Carbs can be / are a tool for various specific uses, but their consumption isn’t optimal for overall health. Sports supplements are another example of the same principle; effective as tools for various goals / uses, but not a true natural contributor to overall health.

Sorry for misspellings / grammar mistakes. Typing thoughts quickly on my phone between sets at gym!
 
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