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Why high rep olys are no more dangerous than heavy singles

C

C T J

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Jan 24, 2013
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THE NOT-SO-EVILS OF HIGH REP WEIGHTLIFTING

BY JACOB TSYPKIN | IN
CROSSFIT TRAINING, OLYMPIC WEIGHTLIFTING | ON AUGUST 28, 2013
http://www.jtsstrength.com/articles/2013/08/28/the-not-so-evils-of-high-rep-weightlifting/

Since the dawn of man – or at least since the popularization of CrossFit – the intranets has been ablaze with coaches vilifying high rep weightlifting.
“The snatch and clean & jerk are meant to be done at low reps.”
“Doing the snatch and clean & jerk for high reps is dangerous.”
“The snatch and clean & jerk are not effective conditioning tools.”

Though there are variations, these are probably the three most common arguments against high rep weightlifting. I’m here to help you understand why they’re all wrong. And why high rep weightlifting is actually a tremendously valuable training tool.
Let’s first define high rep: I don’t mean sets of five. The Russians routinely do sets of four to five reps. So do some of the best weightlifting coaches in the U.S., including Glenn Pendlay, who is fond of having his lifters hang snatch sets of five from below the knee, and Kyle Pierce of LSU Shreveport, whose programming often includes snatch and clean five rep maxes from various hang positions.
No, I’m talking about things like “Grace” (30 clean & jerks for time with 135lbs, usually scaled to 95lbs for women,) and other workouts where the load is relatively light compared to the athletes 1RM, and the goal is to get through the reps quickly enough to elicit a conditioning effect.
Further, I’m not just saying they’re useful for those athletes looking to compete in the CrossFit Games. In fact, I’m not going to bother addressing the idea that those athletes shouldn’t be doing high rep weightlifting. If you are of the opinion that an athlete should ignore an integral component of their sport because you don’t like that it’s an integral component of their sport, you are, frankly, too stupid to bother with. I think all of baseball is dumb, but I don’t tell baseball players not to practice.
No, I’m here to convince you that high rep weightlifting, properly taught and applied, can be valuable for almost any trainee, and to give you some ideas on how to implement it safely and effectively in your gym.
Let’s start by debunking these bogus claims against it.
1. THE SNATCH AND CLEAN & JERK ARE MEANT TO BE DONE FOR 1-3 REPS/TO BUILD EXPLOSIVE POWER

I literally do not even know what this means. The snatch and clean & jerk aren’t “meant” for anything, because we made them up. Through trial and error, weightlifters figured out that these were the best ways to get weight overhead by the rules specified by the IWF. The sport of weightlifting does not have a monopoly on the use of the snatch and clean & jerk. Powerlifters compete one rep at a time, but no one complains about sets of 20 in the squat (well, people complain about sets of 20 in the squat, but not in the same way.)
The point is, no matter how much someone wants to call them “functional” or “natural,” the snatch and clean & jerk are man made. We can do whatever the hell we want with them. They were originally utilized for competition. Then people outside of weightlifting figured out that they could use those same lifts to get stronger and more explosive for their sport. And then people started to realize that they can get you in great shape, too. Deal with it, bro.
2. DOING THE SNATCH AND CLEAN & JERK FOR HIGH REPS IS DANGEROUS.

Credit where it is due for this first part of my defense with this item: it was first pointed out to me by my good friend and former training partner (and nefarious troll) Russ Greene.
When we evaluate the statement “the snatch and clean & jerk for high reps are dangerous,” the statement we are actually evaluating is “the snatch and clean & jerk done in a state of fatigue cause mechanics to break down and injuries to occur.”
Change “in a state of fatigue” for “at near maximal loads” and tell me what changes?
(Nothing changes.)
What does change the situation, in either case, is the athlete knowing how to perform the lifts correctly. With good coaching, neither scenario – max loads, or submaximal loads in a fatigued state – will be inherently dangerous. If anyone has actual data to invalidate that claim, I would love to see it. However, I have owned a CrossFit gym where we regularly do high rep weightlifting for over five years, I can confidently tell you that the injury rate is really ****ing low. But then, we’re good at teaching the snatch and clean & jerk. Maybe you’re not?
There are issues with brand new athletes doing the lifts for high reps in a fatigued state, but they have little to do with injury – more on this later.
3. DOING THE SNATCH AND CLEAN & JERK FOR CONDITIONING DOESN’T PROVIDE ANYTHING YOU CAN’T GET ELSEWHERE

Apparently we should use dumbbells or kettlebells instead. I’ve never understood this argument, but I want you to understand something about why kettlebells are so popular: while they’re a nice training tool in and of themselves, they’re also an amazingly effective way to trick women into lifting weights.
Because that’s what they’re doing. Lifting weights. Except somehow, it’s okay to do kettlebell snatches with light weight and high reps, but not barbell snatches. I’m not sure why. Supposedly it’s “more technical” with a barbell, but you know what? I can get someone to safely snatch a barbell under fatigue more quickly than I can get them to do the same with a kettlebell, because I’m a weightlifting coach and not a kettlebell coach. Funny how it comes back to good coaching.
However, it is crucial to understand that the barbell affords us some opportunities which kettlebells or dumbbells simply do not.
The dumbbell and kettlebell are not as well suited for developing maximal strength as the barbell. This is not merely due to the larger size of the barbell allowing us to load more weight on it. The design of the barbell also allows the lifter to keep the load closer to the center of mass, and thus to engage more musculature to effectively deliver force to the implement.
This is as valuable a trait when doing conditioning as it is when trying to get stronger. Just like the barbell allows us to use heavier loads in the pursuit of greater maximal strength, it also allows us to use heavier loads to improve both general and specific fitness. It lets us move more mass, more quickly, whether we are trying to improve our 1RM clean & jerk, or our ability to do 20 reps with 75% as quickly as possible. Apart from developing the useful quality of being able to work with relatively heavy loads in semi-technical movements while in a fatigued state, the training effect of conditioning with such methods is significant.
This is a sport specific case, but enlightening with regards to the benefits of using weightlifting for conditioning: it is perhaps the single best training tool for grappling athletes.
I come from an extensive background in martial arts, and before opening my own gym, my job was primarily working with competitive MMA fighters and jiu-jitsu players. A crucial component of these sports is being able to complete semi-technical, relatively powerful movements, while under load and in a state of oxygen deprivation and muscular fatigue. Nothing gets as close to an effective mimicry of these conditions as high rep snatches and clean & jerks with a barbell with relatively heavy weight, which not only teach the athlete how to breathe under another body, but also ingrain in the athlete an understanding that especially when tired, they need to let their hips do the work.
Now that those of you who cannot be convinced are busy bashing me to your buddies, those of you who are actually interested in learning how to properly implement high rep weightlifting can read on in peace.
MAKING IT WORK
You’ve probably realized by now that what I’m saying is, you have to be able to coach the lifts correctly if you want people to do them correctly, and that holds true for one rep, three reps, or thirty reps. If you cannot teach someone how to clean correctly for high reps, you cannot teach them how to clean correctly for low reps either. Get off your high horse and just acknowledge that you don’t really know what you’re doing.
Now, on to the practicum.
Firstly, it is important to understand that optimal mechanics for the lifts differ when focusing on high reps versus maximal load. The basics of safety and efficiency stay the same: the back should be neutral, the hips and legs should be the prime movers, and the athlete should avoid common faults like pulling early with the arms.
Perhaps the single most important difference is in the pull from the floor – as Rudy Nielsen once put it “the lift looks exactly the same, once the bar is above the knees.” From the floor, it is common to see the athlete use a much higher hip and straighter knee than would be optimal for max loads. By keeping the knees out of the way and not loading the quads at the start of the movement, the athlete reduces the cycle time of the lift, as well as the metabolic cost incurred by each repetition.
1. BEGINNERS. Folks who are just learning the lifts do not need to do them with barbells for conditioning. Not because there is some massive risk of injury inherent to the practice. No, the issue is ingraining motor patterns. While they’re learning to snatch and clean & jerk with a barbell, doing it for conditioning is going to interfere with the process. During this phase (at our gym, on average, it lasts 5-6 months,) I recommend the use of dumbbells in place of barbells. We replace snatches with single arm hang power snatches, cleans with hang power cleans with the dumbbells held at the athletes sides, and jerks with push presses or power jerks.
It is worth noting that at this stage of training, the athlete is not going for max loads either. They are using variations to learn the lifts with weights which are light enough for them to be consistent, but heavy enough for them to feel the difference between a good lift and a bad lift. In other words, we are avoiding factors which could lead to the athlete learning improper movement patterns, whether that factor be load or fatigue.
2. INTERMEDIATE. At this stage, the athlete has a physical “understanding” of the lifts, and we begin introducing the snatch and clean & jerk with a barbell into the athlete’s conditioning work. We generally keep snatches and cleans from the hang, and will typically prescribe power snatch + overhead squat instead of a full snatch. Our athletes are allowed to power or split jerk the weight for their conditioning workouts, and most by far choose to power jerk.
3. ADVANCED. The athlete is now competent with the snatch and clean & jerk at maximal loads, and his technique is ingrained enough that he can perform the lifts for high reps without changing the way he will lift when attempting PRs. We no longer scale the use of of the classic lifts in conditioning pieces for athletes at this level.
For those of you who are interested in learning to use the lifts to improve your conditioning, I hope I have provided some insight into how best do it. Those of you who were against high rep weightlifting before reading this article, are likely still against it now. But I will leave you with a quote on the subject of high rep weightlifting for conditioning from a weightlifting coach with far more experience, knowledge, and accolades than I:

“IF YOU’RE A COMPETITIVE WEIGHTLIFTER, WHY WOULD YOU DO IT? IF YOU’RE NOT, WHY DOES IT MATTER?” -GLENN PENDLAY

The snatch and clean & jerk are invaluable training tools. Unless you’re a competitive weightlifter, it is foolish to limit your use of the lifts to only building strength and power, when they are capable of improving so much more.
 
monsoon

monsoon

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I wonder how Glenn feels about his words taken out of context to promote CF?
 
C

C T J

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I wonder how Glenn feels about his words taken out of context to promote CF?

I'm sure he's pretty pissed. I'm going to send him an email now.

Seriously though, in what context is Glenn speaking from?
1RM can be just as dangerous as high rep, lighter weight.

Also, the guy that wrote the article was a weightlifting coach, until he opened a CF gym.
Now, he's both.
 
Last edited:
monsoon

monsoon

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I don't know. But my assumption would be that it was not about 30 rep snatches. I know that glen does or did use fives a lot especially for things like squats, but I would be shocked that he would prescribe anything like the Author above. If you are in regular contact with him and I'm wrong then I'll shut up. It's been a long time since I've spoken to him and things change.
 
C

C T J

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I was just joking around, monsoon.

But 30 rep snatches (can be power) at 135...no more dangerous than a 30 rep backsquat at 250 and no more dangerous than a 1RM snatch at whatever PR you're shooting for.
You may see form compromised in any one of those situations. I know my form started to slack a bit on a 305 x 20 backsquat.
I've also seen my form slip a bit on any one of my oly 1RMs. It's not always going to be perfect. I would say the 30 rep snatches at 135 is easier than 30 rep back squat at 250.
 
monsoon

monsoon

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30 rep snatches at 135 would be dangerous for me. As would your 305 x20 squat. I am still recovering from a spinal injury and other than our little experiment 2 weeks ago I haven't snatched in a decade.
 
PillarofBalance

PillarofBalance

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Feb 27, 2011
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Good post fist
 
D

Docd187123

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Dec 2, 2013
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The Fallacy of High-Rep Olympic Lifting
by Mark Rippetoe – 8/26/2013


Here's what you need to know...


• High-rep snatches or clean and jerks can be done safely by very experienced Olympic lifters. But they wouldn't do them anyway because there's no purpose.


• The average person who does high-rep Olympic lifts is a walking encyclopedia of bad, unsafe, and unproductive form.


• Snatches and clean and jerks, as technique-dependent lifts, fall apart easily in the presence of fatigue.


• There's a time for conditioning, but there are better ways to do it than to perform the Olympic lifts like a jackass.


The use of high-rep snatches and clean and jerks for conditioning must be evaluated in the context of the program. Are we using them for exercise or training? And does it really matter?


First, if an experienced Olympic lifter wants to use snatches and C&Js for conditioning or on a dare, sure, go ahead. An experienced lifter actually knows how to do them correctly. And he has had back position and lockout technique hammered into his head enough that these important factors will not erode that much with fatigue – the reps will just be rested longer in between.


So, for an experienced lifter, high-rep snatches won't be a problem. But such a person won't do them anyway, since high-rep snatches don't accomplish anything productive.


For casual exercisers, CrossFit-types and the like, the calculation is a bit different. The vomit I see on the internet – complete lumbar flexion, everything pressed out, everything intentionally rebounded from the floor, all done under the watchful eye of some moron saying "Nice!" – makes me of two minds.


Part of me hopes the fools hurt themselves badly (after all, orthopedic surgeons gotta eat too), and part of me hopes their incompetent, stupid-ass coaches all die in a great Job-like mass of infection (boils, abscessed hemorrhoids, lungs full of fluid, etc.).


It's both an embarrassment to watch and a testament to the fact that apparently tens of thousands of people don't know what the **** they are doing, and have no apparent desire to learn.




But Are They Good for Conditioning?
But the real question here is this: what do you hope to accomplish by doing high-rep snatches, done either correctly or incorrectly? And in either case, is there a better alternative, and why?


"Conditioning" is the use of high-intensity, longer-duration glycolytic exercise to elevate heart rate and respiration rate for the purpose of adapting to this type of work. Conditioning is a type of stress to which the body quickly adapts.


You know this is true if you've been paying attention. It doesn't take an already-strong person more than three or four weeks to get back into very good condition if he has somehow lost it. But it takes a distance runner a couple of years to get strong if he's never been strong before.


The task of getting strong vs. the task of getting in condition presents a problem, since the two types of adaptation compete for resources within the organism in a predictable way: conditioning interferes with strength acquisition, and strength training improves work output without doing any conditioning.


If conditioning is important to you, being stronger should be more important, and getting strong is made a slower process if you try to do conditioning – work that interferes with getting stronger – while trying to get strong. There will be time for conditioning, later. After you get strong.


Using high-rep, light-weight "snatches" and "clean and jerks" for the purpose of conditioning is rather pointless, in that these two technique-dependent movements break down under fatigue, especially for a person for whom technique and strength has not been previously established.


For everybody that does them, doing high numbers of reps with light weights and bad form adapts you to doing precisely that: lots of very light reps, done wrong. So doing them this way can't possibly make you better at doing snatches and C&Js, it can't make you stronger, and there are much better and safer ways to do conditioning... when it's time to do conditioning.




So Why Do Them?


Because the "WOD" says so? Because they're "fun"? Because everybody else in the class is doing them, so you have to? Because they "gas" you? Because you want to get "smoked" with a movement that isn't boring, because you're not "tired" of doing them yet because you haven't practiced them enough to really even have any idea at all about how to do them correctly?


If this is the case, you're not training the snatch and the C&J anyway. You're just exercising with them.




From Exerciser to Trainer
What's the difference? I'll refresh your memory. Briefly, capital-"T" Training is the process of driving a physical adaptation in a specific direction for a specific purpose, while capital-"E" Exercise is what we do for the way it makes us feel today: before, during, and after the workout itself.


For most people – housewives, car salesmen, fat people, the dull and torpid – Exercise is enough. It's better than sitting on your ass. But at some point, some of these people will graduate to Training, and when this happens, planning must occur.


Planning means that there will be lots of days when your workout doesn't make you feel like you want it to, but because you're now Training, you do it anyway, because it's part of the process that generates the result for which you planned.




Effective Conditioning
If you want to do conditioning effectively, push the Prowler, run some hills, or do some sprints. They're easier to dose accurately, they don't make you look like an inexperienced fool, and they lack the injury potential of rounded-back, incorrectly-locked-out-overhead, bounced-off-the-floor barbell movements.


They are a much better alternative because they can be programmed into your Training. If you want to do some explosive conditioning work that won't be detrimental to your shoulder and back health (and your self-worth), do some kettlebell swings or some dumbbell snatches. Leave the Olympic lifts to the Olympic lifters.


But if you just want some Exercise, enjoy yourself, make sure you pay your gym dues, and everybody will be happy.
 
BrotherIron

BrotherIron

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I was just joking around, monsoon.

But 30 rep snatches (can be power) at 135...no more dangerous than a 30 rep backsquat at 250 and no more dangerous than a 1RM snatch at whatever PR you're shooting for.
You may see form compromised in any one of those situations. I know my form started to slack a bit on a 305 x 20 backsquat.
I've also seen my form slip a bit on any one of my oly 1RMs. It's not always going to be perfect. I would say the 30 rep snatches at 135 is easier than 30 rep back squat at 250.

Form always breaks down for a 1RM b/c it's your 1RM but it's a slip in form for that 1 rep, not 20 reps repeatedly. That's the difference... the continual bad form which does lead to injury. It's not that it might, it does. Just ask physical therapists and chiropractors. They will tell your CFers are their best clients.

Also woofing up the weight doesn't give the lifter the benefit gained from performing the Oly lift. Getting everything to fire as unit, building strength, and especially speed is negated when the lift is performed completely wrong which is what I see many times when CFers perform high rep lifts.

I stand by my statement that CFers should perform Oly assisting lifts in higher rep schemes and not the classical lifts.
 
C

C T J

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Jan 24, 2013
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If you're doing 20 snatches...you're form may start to suffer towards the very end - not 20 reps the entire time, especially at 135 which is the weight most
of the workouts use. But honestly, advanced athletes form really doesn't suffer at that weight. Novices of course use a lighter weight so their form doesn't suffer any more than an advanced lifter. It's light so they can work on form.

All I know is the shit works. I'm growing, I'm fast, I'm lean, I'm stronger than I've ever been. Of course I did bodybuilding before so the main goal wasn't strength but I was about 15lbs heavier. I not only do higher rep oly work, but I also do Takano programming which consists of mostly doubles and triples.
 
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