When do YOU start HCG when STARTING testosterone?

[CFM]

A good copy and is good but. In the real world experience is that I am seeking.

Dose
Timing

 

[myosin]

Can you narrow down a little? As in actual cycle or TRT?

For those on TRT, there is some good evidence using HCG, 500iu EOD a week is a benefit. Besides keeping the balls normal sized (just an aesthetic issue most dont' care about), anecdotally it seems alot of guys just "feel better" with some of their own test floating around.

Coviello AD, et al. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2005.

Abstract

In previous studies of testicular biopsy tissue from healthy men, intratesticular testosterone (ITT) has been shown to be much higher than serum testosterone (T), suggesting that high ITT is needed relative to serum T for normal spermatogenesis in men. However, the quantitative relationship between ITT and spermatogenesis is not known. To begin to address this issue experimentally, we determined the dose-response relationship between human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) and ITT to ascertain the minimum dose needed to maintain ITT in the normal range. Twenty-nine men with normal reproductive physiology were randomized to receive 200 mg T enanthate weekly in combination with either saline placebo or 125, 250, or 500 IU hCG every other day for 3 wk. ITT was assessed in testicular fluid obtained by percutaneous fine needle aspiration at baseline and at the end of treatment. Baseline serum T (14.1 nmol/liter) was 1.2% of ITT (1174 nmol/liter). LH and FSH were profoundly suppressed to 5% and 3% of baseline, respectively, and ITT was suppressed by 94% (1234 to 72 nmol/liter) in the T enanthate/placebo group. ITT increased linearly with increasing hCG dose (P < 0.001). Posttreatment ITT was 25% less than baseline in the 125 IU hCG group, 7% less than baseline in the 250 IU hCG group, and 26% greater than baseline in the 500 IU hCG group. These results demonstrate that relatively low dose hCG maintains ITT within the normal range in healthy men with gonadotropin suppression. Extensions of this study will allow determination of the ITT concentration threshold required to maintain spermatogenesis in man.

 

[rawdeal]

Can you narrow down a little? As in actual cycle or TRT?

For those on TRT, there is some good evidence using HCG, 500iu EOD a week is a benefit. Besides keeping the balls normal sized (just an aesthetic issue most dont' care about), anecdotally it seems alot of guys just "feel better" with some of their own test floating around.

Coviello AD, et al. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2005.

Abstract

In previous studies of testicular biopsy tissue from healthy men, intratesticular testosterone (ITT) has been shown to be much higher than serum testosterone (T), suggesting that high ITT is needed relative to serum T for normal spermatogenesis in men. However, the quantitative relationship between ITT and spermatogenesis is not known. To begin to address this issue experimentally, we determined the dose-response relationship between human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) and ITT to ascertain the minimum dose needed to maintain ITT in the normal range. Twenty-nine men with normal reproductive physiology were randomized to receive 200 mg T enanthate weekly in combination with either saline placebo or 125, 250, or 500 IU hCG every other day for 3 wk. ITT was assessed in testicular fluid obtained by percutaneous fine needle aspiration at baseline and at the end of treatment. Baseline serum T (14.1 nmol/liter) was 1.2% of ITT (1174 nmol/liter). LH and FSH were profoundly suppressed to 5% and 3% of baseline, respectively, and ITT was suppressed by 94% (1234 to 72 nmol/liter) in the T enanthate/placebo group. ITT increased linearly with increasing hCG dose (P < 0.001). Posttreatment ITT was 25% less than baseline in the 125 IU hCG group, 7% less than baseline in the 250 IU hCG group, and 26% greater than baseline in the 500 IU hCG group. These results demonstrate that relatively low dose hCG maintains ITT within the normal range in healthy men with gonadotropin suppression. Extensions of this study will allow determination of the ITT concentration threshold required to maintain spermatogenesis in man.

Not sure if I wanna know enough to have any INTRATesticular biopsies done on me, but the combination of Bro-science and Real-science from you and some others here on the Den makes it "Must Reading" for anyone who is serious about the lifestyle.

Thanks.

 

[beefnewton]

You aren't supposed to pin your balls?

 

[rawdeal]

You aren't supposed to pin your balls?

O-Rings, Yes.
Balls, No!

hope this helps.

 

[beefnewton]

If you alternate between the two, the swelling and pain are usually gone by the time of the next injection.

 

[myosin]

You aren't supposed to pin your balls?

direct access! Yes!

 

[blm]

I've always followed the late Dr Crisler's protocol with great success. 250iu 2x week.

 

[myosin]

Not sure if I wanna know enough to have any INTRATesticular biopsies done on me, but the combination of Bro-science and Real-science from you and some others here on the Den makes it "Must Reading" for anyone who is serious about the lifestyle.

Thanks.

I want to say some of the "feel good" portion is that when you start any exogenous test, you're not just shutting down your intra-testicular test production, but also all of the "downstream" hormones like DHEA, pregnenolone, etc which are going to affect a lot of other functions in the body... one reason why some on TRT will supplement 25mg DHEA once or twice a day.

 

[myosin]

I've always followed the late Dr Crisler's protocol with great success. 250iu 2x week.

IIRC correctly that was when he suggested bi-weekly injections, then inject the HCG a day prior to the test injection.... I did not read up much on his SQ protocol, I tended to read more from Emeric who has a similar protocol but with his Humanofort. do you know how Crisler did the HCG with the daily SQ injects?

 

[tommyguns2]

For any newbs here, HCG is injected subcutaneously in a fold of skin in your abs or love handle region typically. Do not inject in your private parts. HCG, as I understand it, mimics LH (leutenizing hormone), which is the natural signal to your testicles to generate testosterone by your own natural production methods.

So, during TRT, by definition, your body is shut down, meaning the test provided by your weekly injections is enough that your body never needs to signal for its own natural production to kick in. That causes the testicles to atrophy (i.e., shrink). Most of us guys don't care about that, but I do think there is some advantage to keeping your natural production going (even if it's not working optimally, hence the TRT).

I believe Dr. Crisler's protocol that was pretty popular for TRT was you pin your long estered test (e.g., test Cyp) once per week, for example, on Sunday. 5 days after pinning, that test level in your bloodstream is beginning to decline, so on day 5 and day 6 (the next Friday and the next Saturday), you would pin HCG (250IUs) on each of those days. That would keep your natural production going, and boost your test levels slightly so that if you looked at your test levels throughout the week, they stayed a bit more level than otherwise.

I've been on test for the last 15 years, and I still take the HCG.

 

[blm]

IIRC correctly that was when he suggested bi-weekly injections, then inject the HCG a day prior to the test injection.... I did not read up much on his SQ protocol, I tended to read more from Emeric who has a similar protocol but with his Humanofort. do you know how Crisler did the HCG with the daily SQ injects?

You have great recollection.

https://www.defymedical.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/An-update-to-the-Crisler-HCG-Protocol.pdf