What's the fastest way to shut down HTPA axis for sure?

[MR. BMJ]

Research shows that a 100mg shot of deca or NPP shut down subjects within 5 days and kept them suppressed for up to 32 days afterward.

 

[mands]

Research shows that a 100mg shot of deca or NPP shut down subjects within 5 days and kept them suppressed for up to 32 days afterward.

Yes nandrolone metabolites can stick around for over 3 months after the drugs active life. this makes recovery very hard with this drug.

mands

 

[Vick]

I would like to see any studies you have on permanent shut down from long term hcg use. I have not found any evidence on this and certainly haven't heard of any desensitization of leydig cells or LH from high dose and long term use?

mands

mands

Just broscience mands. Been a rule of thumb since I started in the 90s. Even on OCT no one uses near the recommended dose for PCT and no one uses it for long on PCT. I mean think about it, the cost and ease of HCG would make it much more appealing than IM injections. I also think I read something about the natural test the body produces being 3 times more effective than synthetic test, idk. All I know is I feel better on HCG than I do on test. Maybe some powerlifters could chime in here, because its a favorite in that sport.

 

[Akhusker]

Yes nandrolone metabolites can stick around for over 3 months after the drugs active life. this makes recovery very hard with this drug.

mands

Yea it is, I've been off cycle since december, I was running test, deca, tren and eq, kick started with dbol. Anyways, I have had a terrible time with getting back to normal, still have testicular atrophy, lidido is in the toilet. I just decided to go back on a mild cycle just to feel better, been on 2 weeks and still don't feel like I should.

 

[Vick]

Yea it is, I've been off cycle since december, I was running test, deca, tren and eq, kick started with dbol. Anyways, I have had a terrible time with getting back to normal, still have testicular atrophy, lidido is in the toilet. I just decided to go back on a mild cycle just to feel better, been on 2 weeks and still don't feel like I should.

Now this is a perfect example of when high dose HCG should be used Pre-PCT. HCG makes my balls like kiwis, my gf says I have the biggest balls she has ever seen lol except when I'm on cycle.

 

[Docd187123]

I meant permanent shut down lol Of course HCG is going to raise test levels but do it for too long and your LH never comes back That's why we don't use it for long PCT or at high doses OCT. Of course you can use Test/Deca/Tren and shut you down big time, but you would still need to wait until you stop to get tested.

The pituitary is usually pretty good at recovering and producing LH. The risk wih HCG is desensitizing the Leydig cells which LH acts upon....that is if you believe DR. Crisler. If you believe Dr. Scally then HCG won't desensitize the Leydig cells.

 

[Akhusker]

Now this is a perfect example of when high dose HCG should be used Pre-PCT. HCG makes my balls like kiwis, my gf says I have the biggest balls she has ever seen lol except when I'm on cycle.

I ran 5000iu per week for a month of pharmacy hcg and then pct for 8 weeks after

 

[Vick]

I ran 5000iu per week for a month of pharmacy hcg and then pct for 8 weeks after

Well then you may be perfect example of permanent shut down from HCG. I only uses a couple weeks at half that dose.

 

[mands]

Well then you may be perfect example of permanent shut down from HCG. I only uses a couple weeks at half that dose.

I would bet it's more on the deca than the hcg. OP when did you start PCT? How long after deca shot and what was your dosing on deca during cycle?

mands

 

[mands]

The pituitary is usually pretty good at recovering and producing LH. The risk wih HCG is desensitizing the Leydig cells which LH acts upon....that is if you believe DR. Crisler. If you believe Dr. Scally then HCG won't desensitize the Leydig cells.

As you know big guy there are no studies or evidence that shows prolonged use or high doses of hcg causes desensitization of leydig cells.

Do you have any of crisle's articles on hand you can send me?

mands

 

[Akhusker]

I would bet it's more on the deca than the hcg. OP when did you start PCT? How long after deca shot and what was your dosing on deca during cycle?

mands

I took off 2 weeks from last pin then started the hcg. Ran that for 3-4 weeks and then started pct after that.

 

[Docd187123]

As you know big guy there are no studies or evidence that shows prolonged use or high doses of hcg causes desensitization of leydig cells.

Do you have any of crisle's articles on hand you can send me?

mands

I haven't been looking lately but as of yet you're right I haven't found much evidence. Here is an excerpt from Anabolics byLlewellyn

“If used for too long or at too high a dose, the drug may actually function to desensitize the Leydig’s cells to luteinizing hormone, further hindering a return to homeostasis.”

Excerpt From: Llewellyn, William. “Anabolics.” iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.

and here is Crisler's paper

It is important that no more than 500IU of HCG be administered on any given day. There is only just so much stimulation possible, and exceeding that not only is wasteful, doing so has important negative consequences. Higher doses overly stimulate testicular aromatase, which inappropriately raises estrogen levels, and brings on the detrimental effects of same. It also causes Leydig cell desentization to LH, and we are therefore inducing primary hypogonadism while perhaps treating secondary hypogonadism. 250IU QD is an effective, and safe, dose. After all, we are merely replacing that which is lost to inhibition.

In my previous report I recommended 250IU of HCG twice per week for all TRT patients, taken the day of, along with the day before, the weekly test cyp injection. After looking at countless lab printouts, listening to subjective reports from patients, and learning more about HCG, I am now shifting that regimen forward one day. In other words, my test cyp TRT patients now take their HCG at 250IU two days before, as well as the day immediately previous to, their IM shot. All administer their HCG subcutaneously, and dosage may be adjusted as necessary (I have yet to see more than 350IU per dose required).

http://www.allthingsmale.com/word_docs/HCGupdate.doc

Of course the dose and duration would play a part in this but I'm torn as both are well respected doctors.