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Tiny Meeker First Man to Bench 1,100lbs in Multiply!

SAD

SAD

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As similar as you CAN make it sound, the analogy doesn't work BI. I'm on my way out the door so I'll try to explain myself later.
 
BrotherIron

BrotherIron

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As similar as you CAN make it sound, the analogy doesn't work BI. I'm on my way out the door so I'll try to explain myself later.
I'm interested in your explanation.

I don't see how my analogy doesn't work since they both aid the lifter (and can do so greatly). I've seen how much someone can add to their lifts when running high doses and when they came off their numbers tanked. I can even pull examples from lifters on this very board where numbers were hit while on and than the numbers dropped when the lifter came off. Now the dose, drugs used, duration, etc all have to be taken into consideration. That's very similar to equipment b/c you have to take into consideration the equipment used and how much each would aid the lifter in performing the lift.

The bottom line is they both aid the lifter and they both provide a safer enviornment for the lifter to compete/train in.

I'm just a raw guy who is on TRT but that doesn't make me better than someone who cycles or someone who lifts equipped. We're just different. None are better than the other. The issue I have is with the hypocrites who'll run a ton of AAS (I know amounts are subjective) and think they're better than an equipped lifter. Take away the drugs and see what your lifts are just like someone can take off their shirt and see what they can take for a ride.
 
gunslinger

gunslinger

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Sep 19, 2010
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I find it interesting that so many are fine with PED's but aren't ok with the idea of equipment. So many say that those who wear the suits and everything wouldn't be able to perform their lifts without them but could those who use PED's perform their lifts without their supps?

Again, I agree with SAD. The analogy doesn't work. When using PEDs you are making your body stronger, but its still YOUR body lifting the weights. With equipment you are putting a lot of the stress on the gear and not the body. If you can't repeat the same lift naked don't tell me the equipment makes little or no difference. Kinda like the functional strength thread. Who is going to have gloves, wraps, bench shirt, special shoes, weight belt, straps ect. should they need to move weight is every day life?
 
BrotherIron

BrotherIron

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Again, I agree with SAD. The analogy doesn't work. When using PEDs you are making your body stronger, but its still YOUR body lifting the weights. With equipment you are putting a lot of the stress on the gear and not the body. If you can't repeat the same lift naked don't tell me the equipment makes little or no difference. Kinda like the functional strength thread. Who is going to have gloves, wraps, bench shirt, special shoes, weight belt, straps ect. should they need to move weight is every day life?
Let me ask you this... are the strength gains you acquire during the use of PED's permanent? They're not. You lose an amount of strength when your cycle ends. You don't lose it all if you ate properly, trained properly, and performed a proper PCT, but you do lose a percentage (that percentage varies but it's fact that you'll lose some).

That's my point. They're both aids. Take the suit off and see if you can perform the same lift.... probably not which is why you wear the suit. Stop using the PED and see if you can perform the same lift at that time.... you probably can't which is why you take the PED.

The only thing that each of us should be concerned with is making measurable progress and in this sport it's measured in pounds or kilograms.
 
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PillarofBalance

PillarofBalance

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Feb 27, 2011
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I think equipped Pl is its own sport. It takes a whole other skill set than powerlifting and is more complicated. Apples to oranges. I don't complain about people who golf so I won't complain about equipped lifters. Still though, benching a grand is ****ing badass
 
Turbolag

Turbolag

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I think brother iron made a great point. That analogy works.

If you bench 500 pounds unequipped and are on 1,000 mg of test a week. Take away the test and your bench is gonna drop.

If you bench 500 pounds in a two ply shirt, take away the shirt and your bench is gonna drop. For the analogy, assume this person is drug free.

If you bench 500 pounds in a two ply shirt AND take 1,000 mg of test weekly, if you take either one away, your bench is gonna drop.
 
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gunslinger

gunslinger

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Here are two reasons BIs analogy doesn't work.

1) With PEDs YOU ARE USING YOUR OWN BODY! With equipment you are not.

2) You are limited with PEDs. If I bench 500 with a gram a week of test, does this mean I'll bench 1,000 on two grams? No. At some point my body will reach a limit, no matter what the amount of drugs I'm taking. With equipment there is no limit how far it could be taken. What if someone invents a special bench shirt that allows users to add 300+ to their best bench? Should it be allowed? If not then why? By your logic it doesn't matter. What if I start using ropes and pulleys and cables? Is that cheating? If so, Why? There is no theoretical limit how much you could lift with devices and equipment. There is a limit how much the body alone will take.


Lets take both to their ultimate stupid extreme. You have a 400 pound guy on 5 grams of test per week, 2 grams of tren, 300mg of drol per day and eating Halo tabs like skittles. He benches 1200. Bring in the equipment lifter with his exoskeleton suit and watch him do 15,000. My point is, where does it end? How far does it go before its the equipment doing the lift and not the lifter? Do we put the limit at a 100 pound advantage? 200? Where do you draw the line if you are going to say some equipment is ok but not others whats the criteria?
 
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BrotherIron

BrotherIron

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My answers are in orange.

Here are two reasons BIs analogy doesn't work.

1) With PEDs YOU ARE USING YOUR OWN BODY! With equipment you are not.
So you're not using your own body when you're wearing equipment? Are you using someone else's? You still have to unrack that 1000lbs when attempting to squat. Your have to be able to support it before you get the command to begin your squat. You still have to hold that bar with 600lbs when you're going to bench it. Your elbows have to support that load.

Your OWN body couldn't lift the weight without the PED's.... period. That's why you're taking PED's to lift the weight... b/c you couldn't do it on your own with your own natural levels your body produces so you're using a modified version of yourself, an ENHANCED version of yourself, to perform the lifts.


2) You are limited with PEDs. If I bench 500 with a gram a week of test, does this mean I'll bench 1,000 on two grams? No. At some point my body will reach a limit, no matter what the amount of drugs I'm taking. With equipment there is no limit how far it could be taken. What if someone invents a special bench shirt that allows users to add 300+ to their best bench? Should it be allowed? If not then why? By your logic it doesn't matter. What if I start using ropes and pulleys and cables? Is that cheating? If so, Why? There is no theoretical limit how much you could lift with devices and equipment. There is a limit how much the body alone will take.

You're correct there is a limit the natural body can handle. That is why people run PED's, to increase that limit.

As to your statement about equipment, that just doesn't make any sense. Saying there is no limit would insinuate totals will forever increase. You forget that the person's body still has to support the weight they're going to attempt to squat, bench, and deadlift. Contrary to what you believe the equipment doesn't perform the work for you.


Lets take both to their ultimate stupid extreme. You have a 400 pound guy on 5 grams of test per week, 2 grams of tren, 300mg or drol per day and eating Halo tabs like skittles. He benches 1200. Bring in the equipment lifter with his exoskeleton suit and watch him do 15,000. My point is, where does it end? How far does it go before its the equipment doing the lift and not the lifter? Do we put the limit at a 100 pound advantage? 200? Where do you draw the line if you are going to say some equipment is ok but not others whats the criteria?
It ends with what the fed's allow. They set the criteria stating what's legal and what's not and like what has been said a million times before if you don't like the federation's rules, don't compete in it. There are tons of federations in PLing so I'm sure you'll find one which meets what your looking for in terms of criteria.
 
SAD

SAD

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Feb 3, 2011
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The distinction that one is increasing your body's ability from inside out (over time, with hard work),while the other is increasing your body's ability externally and INSTANTLY, is all the difference that I need to point out.

But I'll take it much further. When I develop X amount of strength while on cycle, and then drop down to TRT dose, my strength goes down very slightly and then levels out. The big drop in strength that people see is from going from on-cycle to a brutal crash and then PCT. But once they get back to a decent natty test level, the strength goes back up close to where it was on cycle. I've seen that back when I cycled, and I can give you four great examples of guys from this board who have hit huge PRs while blasting, and then drop down to TRT and lose VERY LITTLE strength. Myself, MJR, Halo, and POB have all seen drops in strength when going from a blast to a cruise, but all of us have kept the vast majority of strength earned while lifting on blast.

On the flip side of that, equipped lifters IMMEDIATELY get extra "strength" out of there external gear, and IMMEDIATELY lose ALL of it the second they take it off. Can't argue that at all. The first time I ever put a shirt on, I crushed a 500 pound bench and would've never dreamed of touching 500 raw. The second I took the shirt off, I was back to my "original" strength.

With gear, that simply does not happen. Did y'all know that just one cycle can, and usually does, PERMANENTLY increase your genetic thresholds of strength and muscle mass? There is a legitimate study that proves it, but I haven't seen it in a few years. It surfaced over at Meso back in the day and it changed my opinion of the long term efficacy of cycling, assuming the person planned on returning eventually to completely natural training. They have actually used the results of this study to try to permanently ban athletes that have used PEDs.


Bottom line? Both are aids, but one is doing work FOR you while the other is helping YOU do more work. I've heard the argument a million times that the equipment doesn't "lift the weight for you". Well, no, not all of it. But hundreds of pounds is certainly coming straight from the equipment, period. It can't be denied. If the guy benches 600 raw, and 1000 geared, then the gear is doing 400+ pounds of work, PERIOD. If that guy benches 1000+lbs a million times over two years in a bench shirt, when he takes the shirt off he'll be a damn 600 pound bencher again, MAYBE (he probably got significantly weaker by relying on the gear for so long, I've seen that happen too). If a guy is a 400lb raw bencher, and then blasts test/tren for two years until he's a 600lb bencher, when he stops blasting and has completely normal hormone levels (not crashed, normal),he'll very likely be a 500+lb bencher still. In the very least he certainly will not have gotten WEAKER by "relying" on the AAS.


If I'm not doing a good job of explaining this, please tell me. It seems so simple in my head, and then I start to explain it and I can't get the point across.
 
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gunslinger

gunslinger

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Sep 19, 2010
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SAD said:
Bottom line? Both are aids, but one is doing work FOR you while the other is helping YOU do more work. I've heard the argument a million times that the equipment doesn't "lift the weight for you". Well, no, not all of it. But hundreds of pounds is certainly coming straight from the equipment, period. It can't be denied. If the guy benches 600 raw, and 1000 geared, then the gear is doing 400+ pounds of work, PERIOD. If that guy benches 1000+lbs a million times over two years in a bench shirt, when he takes the shirt off he'll be a damn 600 pound bencher again, MAYBE (he probably got significantly weaker by relying on the gear for so long, I've seen that happen too). If a guy is a 400lb raw bencher, and then blasts test/tren for two years until he's a 600lb bencher, when he stops blasting and has completely normal hormone levels (not crashed, normal),he'll very likely be a 500+lb bencher still. In the very least he certainly will not have gotten weaker by RELYING on the AAS.


If I'm not doing a good job of explaining this, please tell me. It seems so simple in my head, and then I start to explain it and I can't get the point across.

Could not have said it better. I don't understand why this is very simple logic seems to be lost on a few.


BrotherIron said:
You forget that the person's body still has to support the weight they're going to attempt to squat, bench, and deadlift. Contrary to what you believe the equipment doesn't perform the work for you.

The persons body is supporting SOME of the weight. The shirt and wraps are supporting some of it also. If this were not true a 700 pound bencher would still be a 700 lb bencher with a shirt or raw. But, he is not. Without the shirt he is a 500 pound bencher.



BrotherIron said:
an ENHANCED version of yourself, to perform the lifts.

Exactly, and enhanced version of MYSELF. Not external devices. When I do my lifts they do not depend on anything external, just my body and the weights. Its my muscles moving an honest weight. Let me ask you this. How much could this guy bench without the shirt? 800? Maybe 850? Thats impressive as hell in its own right. I'm not taking anything away from him there. But to say he actually benched 1,102 is not correct. He benched what ever amount he could do butt ass naked and the equipment did the rest. End of story.
 
BrotherIron

BrotherIron

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One thing I don't agree with though is.... when you put on equipment you get an automatic increase in your ability to lift more. You have to be able to properly use the shirt, briefs, suit, etc to benefit from it. Not everyone's actually able to benefit from the equipment b/c they're not able to change their technique to accomodate the new equipment.

I don't know if everyone is exactly getting my point.... My point was and still is nothing more than they are both aids (equipment and PED's). The degree to which they aid the user may be different. The thing that always bothers me is that many drug very heavily and say that is ok while they turn their nose towards others who put on a shirt, briefs, or suit. What makes them better? Why is one ok, while the other isn't?

I would like to read that study you referred to if you find it.
 
Turbolag

Turbolag

TID's Official Donut Tester
Oct 14, 2012
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The distinction that one is increasing your body's ability from inside out (over time, with hard work),while the other is increasing your body's ability externally and INSTANTLY, is all the difference that I need to point out.

But I'll take it much further. When I develop X amount of strength while on cycle, and then drop down to TRT dose, my strength goes down very slightly and then levels out. The big drop in strength that people see is from going from on-cycle to a brutal crash and then PCT. But once they get back to a decent natty test level, the strength goes back up close to where it was on cycle. I've seen that back when I cycled, and I can give you four great examples of guys from this board who have hit huge PRs while blasting, and then drop down to TRT and lose VERY LITTLE strength. Myself, MJR, Halo, and POB have all seen drops in strength when going from a blast to a cruise, but all of us have kept the vast majority of strength earned while lifting on blast.

On the flip side of that, equipped lifters IMMEDIATELY get extra "strength" out of there external gear, and IMMEDIATELY lose ALL of it the second they take it off. Can't argue that at all. The first time I ever put a shirt on, I crushed a 500 pound bench and would've never dreamed of touching 500 raw. The second I took the shirt off, I was back to my "original" strength.

With gear, that simply does not happen. Did y'all know that just one cycle can, and usually does, PERMANENTLY increase your genetic thresholds of strength and muscle mass? There is a legitimate study that proves it, but I haven't seen it in a few years. It surfaced over at Meso back in the day and it changed my opinion of the long term efficacy of cycling, assuming the person planned on returning eventually to completely natural training. They have actually used the results of this study to try to permanently ban athletes that have used PEDs.


Bottom line? Both are aids, but one is doing work FOR you while the other is helping YOU do more work. I've heard the argument a million times that the equipment doesn't "lift the weight for you". Well, no, not all of it. But hundreds of pounds is certainly coming straight from the equipment, period. It can't be denied. If the guy benches 600 raw, and 1000 geared, then the gear is doing 400+ pounds of work, PERIOD. If that guy benches 1000+lbs a million times over two years in a bench shirt, when he takes the shirt off he'll be a damn 600 pound bencher again, MAYBE (he probably got significantly weaker by relying on the gear for so long, I've seen that happen too). If a guy is a 400lb raw bencher, and then blasts test/tren for two years until he's a 600lb bencher, when he stops blasting and has completely normal hormone levels (not crashed, normal),he'll very likely be a 500+lb bencher still. In the very least he certainly will not have gotten WEAKER by "relying" on the AAS.


If I'm not doing a good job of explaining this, please tell me. It seems so simple in my head, and then I start to explain it and I can't get the point across.
If you could see me on the other end of the computer, I'm clapping my hands right now. Very nice sir, I see your point.

I'm actually glad to know that when coming off a blast down to trt you can get your strength back.

I am gonna add a couple things.

1. If a multi ply bencher benches 350 Unequipped and 550 with the shirt, if he only uses the shirt for meet prep and does 1 meet a year. This means he trains Unequipped the rest of the year. There is a good chance that in a couple years, his raw bench will go from 350 close to 550. Of course, his equipped bench will probably jump to 750.

2. I can give a personal example of the reference above. For my first meet, in a single ply shirt I opened with x amount of weight. At the end of the year I was able to bench that weight raw for a single. Because I stayed out of the shirt and only used it sparingly. I think this is important for equipped lifters to train Unequipped and use their gear only in cycles.
It's easy to get hooked on using pl gear because of the increase in strength. But if you rely on it too much, your overall raw strength takes a dip.

3. Brother iron also had a really good point. The Feds will decide what is legal and what isn't.

4. I don't think the shirts and suits can get much tighter because depth on the squat won't be able to be reached. You won't be able to touch on bench. And you won't be able to get down to the bar on dead lifts.

Just my thoughts.
 
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