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Short Cycles : 2/4

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xXGetBigSonXx

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2010
217
0
First, I like the idea of two off/two on better myself.

Regarding 6 on/2 off, I wrote this for my other board:

The Bigger Picture-Hawks Thoughts on Burst Cycling for Mass

So, here is my current philosophy on my long term strategy of training, nutrition and AAS for the next 12 months. I am no guru and this could be way off, but so far it is the best I can make of it all and works for my budget and level of experience and commitment. I am going to make some general statements, give some explanation and how I apply it all, so hopefully it makes sense.

Training: If you subscribe to the dual factor theory as I do as well as Westside, Dave Tate, Rippetoe etc...Than you will realize that wt. training has a cumulative effect which requires a deloading phase to allow for super compensation.

AAS: We all know that the best gains from any cycle come at the middle(long esters) and/or beginning with short esters. The reason is that you have fresh AR receptors and frankly your body has not adapted to the exogenous hormones like they would at the end of a 12 week cycle. My thinking here is that 2 six week cycles trump one 12 week cycle.

Insulin: Well we all know you can desensitize whether for exogenous or your bodies own, so taking a break once and a while will reap long term benefits.

Peptides: from my understanding you can run peptides continuously with no ill effect.

Nutrition: I am a big believer in carb cycling and am convinced now more than ever that for me staying lean is critical. The benefits of gaining mass and having a system that is sensitive to insulin is understood by anyone has has reached single digit bodyfat and then proceeded to eat again...you get huge quick. With that being said, I suck at daily carb cycling if nothing is on the line, so I do weekly.

Putting it all together. The thing that all the above have in common is that there needs to be an "off" period to maximize long term benefits. At the same time I suspect that the time on and off would differ for each of the above and I simply do not have the understanding or will to pursue such madness.

Enter the Burst Cycle: If you followed my log over in the Tan Research Thread you will have read some about this. The short version is that for 6 weeks you train hard, eat like an animal, pin everything in sight and use slin to help keep the train moving. That is followed by a 2 week off period when you deload, eat clean, add fat burners,and drop long esters (self tapering...Bilters Term). After the two weeks you should have dried out, lost a pound or two and be both physically and mentally recovered, plus primed for another 6 week Burst!

I have more to say but that is enough hot air for now.
Feel free to comment or criticize.

Hawk

My main concern is that after 6 weeks on, you cannot recover in 2 weeks. Which you would be shut down the whole time and if you are doing this for an extended period of time you might as well just be on the whole time. This would recommend using HCG to keep the boys running..

(if you cant tell - my ways of doing things are on the safe side - i do want kids someday and not looking to get on HRT TRT by 40 - not that i have been running cycles my whole life but you get the point lol)
 
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MuscleHead
Sep 9, 2010
3,442
648
Ok, this has been a good topic of discussion over the past year. Normally, I'll run 6 week cycles with short esters and then end with an 18 day PCT. The key here is to frontload the Clomid or Nolva or whatever you choose. Pin HCG for the entire last week and then start 3-4 days after your last pin. 18 days is more than enough time to recover from a standard test/oral cycle that is 6 weeks (at least in my case). I'm already feeling pretty good only 5 days into PCT from a 6 week test/NPP cycle.

Let's get this straight, 6on 2off WILL NOT WORK....unless you subscribe to HRT/blast and cruise method. This then works because you dont' have to worry about recovering natural test levels. Those levels are supplemented by exogenous test. So, in Hawk's case, that would work well. I have known other guys that keep their test dose very similar year round and blast with other hormones...nandrolones, trenbolones, EQ, orals, etc. I would imagine this would be very effective as well.

The problem with 2 weeks on, 4 weeks off is that for a 2 week cycle to be effective you almost surely have to include an oral. Being on an oral 2 out of every 6 weeks in the year is not very condusive to good liver health. The liver never gets a chance to recover. Whereas if you pound the liver with orals for 4-6 weeks and then let it recover for 12-20 weeks, you give it a fighting chance. Also, the 2on, 4off deal has you on PCT more than anyone would like to be. What people don't understand is that Nolva and Clomid are not your friend....all the time. Sure, they help with recovery, but they are also liver toxic and can contribute to health problems.

In the end, I think anyone who wants to continue this lifestyle into their late 30s and 40s and beyond has to seriously consider HRT. I'm not ready for that yet at my age but I know it's necessary if I want a chance at having a "normal" life and sex drive. The up and down battles of blasting/recovering take a toll as you get older. At a certain point your body is going to say "fuck you, I'm done" and have nothing left to help you recover.

By no means am I a guru, but the protocol I'm going to follow from here on out is to do just ONE 10-12 week cycle per year with long esters and multiple hormones. This will be the major bulking cycle for the year. If I can't gain a solid 25 lbs in a cycle that includes Drol, Test, EQ and Deca (Or Tren) then I'm not trying hard enough. The rest of the year will be spent on shorter 4-6 week cycles to maintain the size and cut some fat. Peptides are the future of this sport and should be used during PCT and beyond (IMHO). If you haven't already, start researching the peptides that will help you maintain your gains as well as keep your body firing on all cylinders.
 
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xXGetBigSonXx

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2010
217
0
All good info bros!

Length of a short cycle can be very condusive to the users relative size also... This could do well to achieve a certain size then obviously taking the cycle longer and adding more aas would be advised as one trys to extend beyond the size baseline T levels can maintain...
 
X

xXGetBigSonXx

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2010
217
0
Ok, this has been a good topic of discussion over the past year. Normally, I'll run 6 week cycles with short esters and then end with an 18 day PCT. The key here is to frontload the Clomid or Nolva or whatever you choose. Pin HCG for the entire last week and then start 3-4 days after your last pin. 18 days is more than enough time to recover from a standard test/oral cycle that is 6 weeks (at least in my case). I'm already feeling pretty good only 5 days into PCT from a 6 week test/NPP cycle.

Let's get this straight, 6on 2off WILL NOT WORK....unless you subscribe to HRT/blast and cruise method. This then works because you dont' have to worry about recovering natural test levels. Those levels are supplemented by exogenous test. So, in Hawk's case, that would work well. I have known other guys that keep their test dose very similar year round and blast with other hormones...nandrolones, trenbolones, EQ, orals, etc. I would imagine this would be very effective as well.

The problem with 2 weeks on, 4 weeks off is that for a 2 week cycle to be effective you almost surely have to include an oral. Being on an oral 2 out of every 6 weeks in the year is not very condusive to good liver health. The liver never gets a chance to recover. Whereas if you pound the liver with orals for 4-6 weeks and then let it recover for 12-20 weeks, you give it a fighting chance. Also, the 2on, 4off deal has you on PCT more than anyone would like to be. What people don't understand is that Nolva and Clomid are not your friend....all the time. Sure, they help with recovery, but they are also liver toxic and can contribute to health problems.

In the end, I think anyone who wants to continue this lifestyle into their late 30s and 40s and beyond has to seriously consider HRT. I'm not ready for that yet at my age but I know it's necessary if I want a chance at having a "normal" life and sex drive. The up and down battles of blasting/recovering take a toll as you get older. At a certain point your body is going to say "fuck you, I'm done" and have nothing left to help you recover.

By no means am I a guru, but the protocol I'm going to follow from here on out is to do just ONE 10-12 week cycle per year with long esters and multiple hormones. This will be the major bulking cycle for the year. If I can't gain a solid 25 lbs in a cycle that includes Drol, Test, EQ and Deca (Or Tren) then I'm not trying hard enough. The rest of the year will be spent on shorter 4-6 week cycles to maintain the size and cut some fat. Peptides are the future of this sport and should be used during PCT and beyond (IMHO). If you haven't already, start researching the peptides that will help you maintain your gains as well as keep your body firing on all cylinders.

This raises some questions...
The liver can rebound very quickly. The longer one is on an oral would equal a longer "rebound" for your liver to recover. With all things being equal - i would think it would be more benefical to run an oral for only 2 weeks, then have 4 weeks off then to run a 6 week straight oral protocol.

Lets look at it like this...
Total cycle time: 12 weeks...

2/4 method = 3 cycles = 6 total weeks running an oral (dbol)
12 week cycle = 4-6 weeks running an oral straight...

-the 4 week breaks in the 2/4 method gives your live more than enough time to rebound
-where as the 12 week cycle you will have just about the same time on but will be at a longer duration which would equal harsher on ones liver
 
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MuscleHead
Sep 9, 2010
3,442
648
This raises some questions...
The liver can rebound very quickly. The longer one is on an oral would equal a longer "rebound" for your liver to recover. With all things being equal - i would think it would be more benefical to run an oral for only 2 weeks, then have 4 weeks off then to run a 6 week straight oral protocol.

Lets look at it like this...
Total cycle time: 12 weeks...

2/4 method = 3 cycles = 6 total weeks running an oral (dbol)
12 week cycle = 4-6 weeks running an oral straight...

-the 4 week breaks in the 2/4 method gives your live more than enough time to rebound
-where as the 12 week cycle you will have just about the same time on but will be at a longer duration which would equal harsher on ones liver

You forget that the ancillaries you will take for PCT are also liver toxic. The main point here is to limit the use of ancillary drugs. Personally, I don't run any orals longer than 4 weeks with the exception of anavar.

Using the 2 on 4 off method you can run a little more than 8 cycles for a total of 16-18 weeks "ON" but also 16-18 weeks PCT.

12 on 12 off gives you 2 cycles per year for a total of 24+ weeks "ON" and about 8-10 Weeks of PCT.

12 + 6ers (that's what I call it) gives you one 12 week cycle plus two 6 week cycles (with 8 weeks off inbetween) for a total of 24+ weeks "ON" and about 8-10 Weeks of PCT

So, as you can see, the last 2 plans are nearly identical in terms of time on and off, but the 12+6s plan allows for less suppression for a good part of the year. Also, that is taking into consideration 8 weeks inbetween cycles (14-18 days PCT and the rest time off). You could do only 6 weeks off inbetween and probably be fine.

Another option if you really want to go short is 4 on, 1 or 2 PCT, 3 or 4 Off (9 weeks total). You get about 6 cycles per year with 24 weeks on and 6-12 weeks PCT.

I think the magic number for us guys who attempt to recover our HPTA and do not use HRT is 24 weeks on per year. Don't do much less than that, and don't do much more.
 
chicken_hawk

chicken_hawk

MuscleHead
Oct 28, 2010
718
150
I maybe a little out of place here as well, due to the fact that at this point I am not concerned about HPTA shutdown and revival. BBing this late in my life is a dream come true,as when I was a teen in the 80's I worshiped these guys, then life and kids (reality happened) and I dropped it for 8 yrs. Now at 38 I have competed twice and plan on going hard until I grab an overall or turn 43, whichever comes first.

That being said, I run 6/2 because of my previous post. Basically, I take time off in order to make going back on more effective. I have found six weeks superior to 8,10,12 and 16 as well as 9month cycles cuz I have tried them. 6/2 has it's flaws for sure, but it works best for me.

Also, regarding ancillaries (I am no authority), but don't they artificially stimulate your HPTA system, so in reality you need time to level off from them as well?

Here is my current Burst I started 2 weeks ago (entertainment only) taken from my log:

AAS (all athens)
Test E 1800 EW
Tren A 600 EW
Oral Winny 50 ED

Peptides ( Melanotan 2 | Bremelanotide | Tanning | Peptides USA | MT-II PT-141 | GHRP-6 )

Upon waking pin peps 100mcg both GHRP/GRF

40min PRW pin 8ius slin + 5g Luecine
30min PRW pin peps
20min PRW shake (CM, EEA's, caffeine 20-30g Dextrose)

IWO shake (electrolytes and EEA's)

PWO pins peps
15mins PWO Shake ( 5g CM,5g Luecine, 30g Dextrose, 50g Whey)

1/3/2011
Wt 243
Ht: 5'10"
ab caliper 4mm
Neck 19.25
Delts 58.25
Chest 50.25
L. arm 18.25
Waist 39
Quads 28
Calves 17


Hawk
 
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MuscleHead
Sep 9, 2010
3,442
648
ya, it's a whole different story for guys who never come off hawk. And yes, you need time to recover from the ancillaries as well. That's why no one goes straight from PCT into another cycle.

If you guys want to read the original Bill Roberts article to see what his theory is on it, here it is...

The 2-On, 4-Off Cycle: A Case Study by Bill Roberts
 
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xXGetBigSonXx

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2010
217
0
haha i love your avatar Get Some! "There is a junge cat in the bathroom!" hahaha
 
chicken_hawk

chicken_hawk

MuscleHead
Oct 28, 2010
718
150
ya, it's a whole different story for guys who never come off hawk. And yes, you need time to recover from the ancillaries as well. That's why no one goes straight from PCT into another cycle.

If you guys want to read the original Bill Roberts article to see what his theory is on it, here it is...

The 2-On, 4-Off Cycle: A Case Study by Bill Roberts

I remember reading that some time ago and thought what a great idea and so I ran it with orals and unsurprisingly I was very disappointed :(

Hawk
 
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MuscleHead
Sep 9, 2010
3,442
648
I remember reading that some time ago and thought what a great idea and so I ran it with orals and unsurprisingly I was very disappointed :(

Hawk

Ya, I will never do this to my body as I think it's easier for the body to adapt to increasing doses than it is for it to adapt to short term but frequent usage. Does that make sense? Once you hit the end of 2 weeks you feel like you are just hitting your stride....but it's time to quit already :(

And to use orals for every 2on 4off cycle is unreasonable because of the liver toxicity. Even pinning Prop I feel like it takes a week or so for me to really get going....I'd be pissed if I had to stop at the end of the week, knowing I couldn't pin more until a month later. I think it would really just piss me off more than anything.

So, in conclusion, If you'd like to lead a pissed off life, please subscribe to the 2on 4 off cycle method
 
chicken_hawk

chicken_hawk

MuscleHead
Oct 28, 2010
718
150
Ya, I will never do this to my body as I think it's easier for the body to adapt to increasing doses than it is for it to adapt to short term but frequent usage. Does that make sense? Once you hit the end of 2 weeks you feel like you are just hitting your stride....but it's time to quit already :(

And to use orals for every 2on 4off cycle is unreasonable because of the liver toxicity. Even pinning Prop I feel like it takes a week or so for me to really get going....I'd be pissed if I had to stop at the end of the week, knowing I couldn't pin more until a month later. I think it would really just piss me off more than anything.

So, in conclusion, If you'd like to lead a pissed off life, please subscribe to the 2on 4 off cycle method

Well said. It is going to take the body time to take advantage of the increase. Also, one of the reasons I chose 6 weeks.

Hawk
 
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xXGetBigSonXx

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2010
217
0
all valid points. the thing that caught my attention when discussing this with Bill was that gains can be maintained better over a long period of time, while still allowing intervals for recovery. I do not have personal experience to the outcomes of running a 2/4 because i have never done it before. I would think he does know a little about this. Under my understanding for one to be succesful with gains on this type of cycle one would have to do it for an extended period of time.. looking for gradual gains over a longer time frame. now i know this is frowned upon in the world of most "bros" running cycles because most are looking for instant gratification at high levels.

im not tyring to give pros or cons against anything.. just wanted to see if anyone had any experience running this because it sounded interesting... but i also acknowledge and agree with points Get Some has made.. not sure if i should run it for awhile and see how it goes.. or go back to the drawing board lol.. great discussion though guys! :)
 
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