Questions About Estrogen.....

[klbsa]

How old are you? I think most of the older guys on the boards are on TRT, so we do not have to worry about recovery. That being said, some of us will come off for a month or two to help the testes and receptors recover. If your PCT is on point you can recover in a month.

I'm 45, and I have looked into TRT.... My insurance wont cover it unless its just a test patch which was more hassle than it was worth. Regular injectable TRT is more expensive than just buying the gear myself and running it how I want. But my balls still work and I figure why mess with what God gave me if I don't need to.

 

[Wilson6]

I am not taking any test, but years back when I took this same stack my blood work showed a lot of estrogen...... My wife (who is an MD) says that estrogen promotes fat storage, but I'm no expert or anything.... Just what I heard. So I figured if I block those receptors maybe it would help with me cutting fat.

My lack of actual knowledge is obvious and is why I posted this question.

IMO, E2 does not promote fat storage in the physiologic range, maybe increases water retention via RAAS, lack of T does promote fat storage or at least repartitions food toward fat and not muscle. If crashing E2 made you ripped, women on AIs post BC that have near zero estrogen would be ripped, they are not. My client that is a post BC survivor has been on AIs for 3 years, E2 near zero. Only when she added a T pellet a year ago (T 4 weeks after 600 - 700 ng/dl and just before the next pellet (200 - 300 ng/dl) did she pack on muscle and get ripped. The only thing that AI did was give her severe post menopausal Sx and joint pain. Hair looked like shit and she felt like shit. Feels like superwoman now on T now despite E2 < 5 and all Sx of low E2 are gone. E2 is needed for muscle hypertrophy, brain and heart health, etc. For guys, its about the T/E2 ratio, not just total E2. If your E2 as a guy is above 30 and below 70 or 80, you're in good shape esp with high T (800 - 1200). Unless you are prone to gyno, then avoid AIs, they are the devil and hard to keep E2 stable. Better to cut T and add Mast than an AI to control E2 if you are prone to Sx IMO. AIs were designed to crush estrogen in women with BC, not fine tune it in guys, the 1/2 lives just don't match up. My non medical two cents.

 

[Type-IIx]

None of the androgens you've mentioned (Methylstenbolone, Dimethazine, Metenolone, Oxandrolone) aromatize at all, so increased E2 is not an issue with any of them. It is true that a function of estradiol is increased adipose tissue deposition, and yet as Wilson6 mentions if estradiol is maintained below, arbitrarily, about 65-70 while the androgen/estrogen ratio is increased you won't have any problems (this is hypothetical, however, as it does not apply to any of the androgens you've mentioned). Aromatizing androgen provides muscle anabolic benefits (these arise mostly from in situ aromatization largely [process]) rather than directly from estradiol, though estradiol is a potent agonist for ER-β [involved in muscle tissue remodeling]).

 

[Wilson6]

Estrogens in Male Physiology https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28539434/ Long read, scroll down to the parts on muscle and fat, and prostate.

Effect of Estrogen on Musculoskeletal Performance and Injury Risk (addresses mostly female and estrogen) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6341375/

 

[Type-IIx]

@Wilson6

I've been reading through the first (49 pages!) and will get through the second, actually taking notes and learning a great deal on this. Thank you VERY much for posting truly relevant studies. I'll go so far as to say that I underestimated the importance of estradiol on male physiology, and even that the statement that a function of estradiol is adipose tissue deposition is not quite true (rather, while ERKO may result in a phenotype lacking feminine adipose tissue distribution supportive of childbirth; it does not follow that estradiol is adipogenic or anti-lipolytic, quite the opposite).

Practically, I'm still not inherently opposed to the use of AIs in men - I don't believe you are either. Consider too, from Estrogens in Male Physiology, that that 20% of male circulating E2 that originates from testis is going to be difficult to crush (obviating some risk in truly "crashing your E2," not to say you won't feel terrible for some days). I believe it an objective of any blast/cycle to modulate E2 below, somewhat arbitrarily, approx. 70 nmol/L, as I believe that very high concentrations of estradiol pose a net negative to male physiology.

But estrogens and E2 are certainly important for male physiology at normal levels - more than I previously recognized.

 

[Type-IIx]

Thanks to Wilson6, I have learned some facts about estrogens in men. Estrogen is vital for lipid management, bone growth, glucose & lipid metabolism, male sexual function, skeletal muscle (function, mass, and strength), adipose tissue; bad for ligaments, decreases performance due to effects on tendon, but conversely decreases injury proneness of tendon. Unclear whether harmful or beneficial in cardiovascular tissues in men. Bad for male immune function (unlike in women).

Certainly exogenous estrogens are harmful, rather we want in situ aromatization from aromatizing androgen to modulate T/E2 ratio. Still think there's a theoretical upper limit to optimal absolute estrogen concentrations.