Big Cat
RIP
- Dec 11, 2011
- 64
- 48
It might be wise to remember that idiopathic oligospermia usually means men who have low to no sperm production WITHOUT any suppressant drugs present to begin with. Meaning any proposed treatment could be affecting the primary problem. In PCT the primary problem IS in fact androgen use. Now there is no qualm with using some androgens during you HCG, in fact going off long acting products to go to less suppressive and in some cases mildly useful (mesterolone and fluoxymesterone) products is probably a good idea, but use of all androgens at any dose should be stopped at the same time as HCG (and you should be a week or two into SERM treatment by them) in order to maximally reduce negative feedback at the pituitary and testicular level.
The reason studies are done with androgens is because the belief is that there might be a short stimulus to the testicles that is more advantageous than the HPTA supressant effect (we are talking extremely low doses in men with endogenous problems). However with suppression from androgen use the problem is severe disuse causing shrinkage. This is reversed best with LH analogues like HCG in high doses forcing the testicles to produce at normal levels again, after which LH production normalizes pretty much after cessation, even after very long periods of use (aided some by SERMS), at which point the testicles will resume normal production. The stimulatory effect they hope to see with low dose mesterolone or test undec is an as of yet undefined problem in the testicles that is halting production despite the patient having had normal LH/FSH levels for most of his life. (and even those studies seem evenly split between mild effect on mild oligosperima and no beneficial effect)
So I would advise STRONGLY against using any type of androgens after the cessation of your HCG. The fact that the last study demonstrating mild positive effects in a small group of men with non-AAS related oligospermia was done in 1988 and no self-respecting endocrinologist would dream of using androgens to treat AAS-induced oligospermia should also be some indication this is a bad idea.
One needs to establish when the best gains are made, and that is rarely in the first 4 weeks, but typically in week 4-8. As such one would make less gains to begin with on a 4-week cycle, negating the effect of any faster recovery. Efficiency factors into as well.
Likewise, I don't mean any disrespect, but please refrain from using such an addage when it concerns people's health and well-being. To put things in context, lets say the topic was "cyanide in post-cycle recovery" and you ending your posts with "don't knock it til you tried it" is tantamount to homicide. Now we know these products to have no immediate risk to our health, but it still doesn't give you the right to jeopardize anothers health based on what you perceive to be correct based on personal experience, subject to a myriad of uncontrolled parameters.
The reason studies are done with androgens is because the belief is that there might be a short stimulus to the testicles that is more advantageous than the HPTA supressant effect (we are talking extremely low doses in men with endogenous problems). However with suppression from androgen use the problem is severe disuse causing shrinkage. This is reversed best with LH analogues like HCG in high doses forcing the testicles to produce at normal levels again, after which LH production normalizes pretty much after cessation, even after very long periods of use (aided some by SERMS), at which point the testicles will resume normal production. The stimulatory effect they hope to see with low dose mesterolone or test undec is an as of yet undefined problem in the testicles that is halting production despite the patient having had normal LH/FSH levels for most of his life. (and even those studies seem evenly split between mild effect on mild oligosperima and no beneficial effect)
So I would advise STRONGLY against using any type of androgens after the cessation of your HCG. The fact that the last study demonstrating mild positive effects in a small group of men with non-AAS related oligospermia was done in 1988 and no self-respecting endocrinologist would dream of using androgens to treat AAS-induced oligospermia should also be some indication this is a bad idea.
One needs to establish when the best gains are made, and that is rarely in the first 4 weeks, but typically in week 4-8. As such one would make less gains to begin with on a 4-week cycle, negating the effect of any faster recovery. Efficiency factors into as well.
Likewise, I don't mean any disrespect, but please refrain from using such an addage when it concerns people's health and well-being. To put things in context, lets say the topic was "cyanide in post-cycle recovery" and you ending your posts with "don't knock it til you tried it" is tantamount to homicide. Now we know these products to have no immediate risk to our health, but it still doesn't give you the right to jeopardize anothers health based on what you perceive to be correct based on personal experience, subject to a myriad of uncontrolled parameters.
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