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Oral Cycle Recommendations

macgyver

macgyver

TID Board Of Directors
Nov 24, 2011
1,608
1,021
#13
You're not as bad as it seems, I'm calculating you are 185lbs @ 84kg and started at 127lbs @ 58kg. It looks like your weight has been miscalculated by 27lbs . You have put on 57lbs or 25.8kg since you started cycling.

.
I think you are right. I saw his weight at 77kg and missed the 82 later.

My concern might still hold true that he has not figured out how to eat for his goals if he could not break 160lbs naturally at 5'10.

Each can walk their own road, but I am a fan of maximizing natural progress at least to some reasonable extnet prior to jumping on AAS. It took him 5 cycles to hit 185, I would question where this is all going.

I would suggest a simple lean bulk to 210 w/ 1lb per week weight gain. (500 cal surplus). This would be true either on or off AAS. If you want to progress you have to learn to eat for your goals.

You arent the first person ever that jumps on AAS early, but really figure out how to maximize your progress without relying on higher and higher doses.

Of course there are always your goals. If you want to be IFBB big, then sure, no one can hold that size without getting on and staying on significant doses. If you are looking to be fit and being such long term, my adive is slow and steady wins the race. I am approaching 50 and still hold 200+lbs lean at 5'9 >10 bf. I would be 225 at avg bf levels. Not huge by any means, but I can maintain my size and strength on a normal hormone profile and dont always need to be 'on' to be where I want to be.

In the end, let us know what your goals are. If there is one truth I have seen in the 20 years I have been in the gym, is people do not understand the power of food. It is the most powerful tool at your disposal. Even more so than AAS. If you learn to use it to your advantage, it will benefit you regardless of what path you choose.
 
enjoy_tren

enjoy_tren

VIP Member
Jan 7, 2014
353
184
#14
I echo everything said here, especially learning how to pin. It's not that hard. I googled it and learned how to do it on my own. If you cant pin then forget about gear. Whatre you gonna do when you get older and need trt but cant inject yourself?
 
SAD

SAD

TID Board Of Directors
Feb 3, 2011
3,241
1,475
#15
I think you are right. I saw his weight at 77kg and missed the 82 later.

My concern might still hold true that he has not figured out how to eat for his goals if he could not break 160lbs naturally at 5'10.

Each can walk their own road, but I am a fan of maximizing natural progress at least to some reasonable extnet prior to jumping on AAS. It took him 5 cycles to hit 185, I would question where this is all going.

I would suggest a simple lean bulk to 210 w/ 1lb per week weight gain. (500 cal surplus). This would be true either on or off AAS. If you want to progress you have to learn to eat for your goals.

You arent the first person ever that jumps on AAS early, but really figure out how to maximize your progress without relying on higher and higher doses.

Of course there are always your goals. If you want to be IFBB big, then sure, no one can hold that size without getting on and staying on significant doses. If you are looking to be fit and being such long term, my adive is slow and steady wins the race. I am approaching 50 and still hold 200+lbs lean at 5'9 >10 bf. I would be 225 at avg bf levels. Not huge by any means, but I can maintain my size and strength on a normal hormone profile and dont always need to be 'on' to be where I want to be.

In the end, let us know what your goals are. If there is one truth I have seen in the 20 years I have been in the gym, is people do not understand the power of food. It is the most powerful tool at your disposal. Even more so than AAS. If you learn to use it to your advantage, it will benefit you regardless of what path you choose.
Do you honestly believe that 5’9” 210lbs at less than 10%bf and approaching 50 is achievable at normal hormone levels?

Let’s say you’re 1 in 8billion. That still doesn’t mean that the OP is going to be able to ever reach 210lbs naturally at low body fat regardless of age, and that goes for 99.9999% of people on earth.

I’m all for telling this guy to wait and learn more before his next cycle, but giving him unreal goals and using yourself as a baseline, well, that’s unfair to him.

Last paragraph about food could not be more true.
 
HDH

HDH

TID Board Of Directors
Sep 30, 2011
1,971
763
#16
I think you are right. I saw his weight at 77kg and missed the 82 later.

My concern might still hold true that he has not figured out how to eat for his goals if he could not break 160lbs naturally at 5'10.

Each can walk their own road, but I am a fan of maximizing natural progress at least to some reasonable extnet prior to jumping on AAS. It took him 5 cycles to hit 185, I would question where this is all going.

I would suggest a simple lean bulk to 210 w/ 1lb per week weight gain. (500 cal surplus). This would be true either on or off AAS. If you want to progress you have to learn to eat for your goals.

You arent the first person ever that jumps on AAS early, but really figure out how to maximize your progress without relying on higher and higher doses.

Of course there are always your goals. If you want to be IFBB big, then sure, no one can hold that size without getting on and staying on significant doses. If you are looking to be fit and being such long term, my adive is slow and steady wins the race. I am approaching 50 and still hold 200+lbs lean at 5'9 >10 bf. I would be 225 at avg bf levels. Not huge by any means, but I can maintain my size and strength on a normal hormone profile and dont always need to be 'on' to be where I want to be.

In the end, let us know what your goals are. If there is one truth I have seen in the 20 years I have been in the gym, is people do not understand the power of food. It is the most powerful tool at your disposal. Even more so than AAS. If you learn to use it to your advantage, it will benefit you regardless of what path you choose.
Until we get more info, it's hard to tell what he needs. That's why I was trying to get an idea of what he looks like. It's possible that he started off not knowing anything and tightened up the last year or two. It's possible that he lacks the discipline to hold his new muscle after the cycle. It's also possible that he doesn't know how to eat. That's why I asked about cals and protein. He may also need to cut before he does anything.

After 5 cycles I'm guessing he's not going to take the advice to not cycle. He'll probably move on to the next board that agrees with him running the cycle.

If he really doesn't know how to eat, running such a tight diet may not be in his best interest. Running 500cals over everyday can be a challenge for a new dieter since they don't have the experience to factor in cals spent. 500cals can be burnt easily just running a different pace in the gym. Not to mention outside activities. Someone running a tight diet has to have all their outside activities accounted for with cals burnt.

Easy for someone with years of experience but not so much for someone new to it. I might suggest running 2lbs a week just to make sure he doesn't burn too many cals a couple days and spin his wheels. What you are suggesting is fine with someone that knows the ropes, I suggest keeping it simple to start.

I take nothing away from you. You have put in years of hard work and it shows. I just think he should go a little more basic on the diet.
 
macgyver

macgyver

TID Board Of Directors
Nov 24, 2011
1,608
1,021
#17
Do you honestly believe that 5’9” 210lbs at less than 10%bf and approaching 50 is achievable at normal hormone levels?


I’m all for telling this guy to wait and learn more before his next cycle, but giving him unreal goals and using yourself as a baseline, well, that’s unfair to him.

Last paragraph about food could not be more true.

I either wast clear or you misunderstood. Except to possibly some total freaks, 5'9 10% natural at anything over 190 is elite level genes.

What I was saying is at 5'10, you ought to not be afraid to eat up to 210-ish, Of that 210, 10-12 is just water bloat and glycogen retention that will come with the extra cals. That is (from my experience) where you can stay productive in a 'bulk' even while natural. I think him going between 180 and 220 are good swings, each time trying to hold more mass.

By all means we all have different genetic responses. The tool of learning to eat for one's goals will benefit him regardless of the path he takes. I am a big fan of getting the most of any additional supplemental hormone levels. AAS does not make mass out of thin air. It shifts the curve of our nitrogen retention.

The better you are stimulating, and supplying during those times of elevated hormones, the more productive you will be. You also will be in a position to understand to hold on to said mass after.




If he really doesn't know how to eat, running such a tight diet may not be in his best interest. Running 500cals over everyday can be a challenge for a new dieter since they don't have the experience to factor in cals spent. 500cals can be burnt easily just running a different pace in the gym. Not to mention outside activities. Someone running a tight diet has to have all their outside activities accounted for with cals burnt.

Easy for someone with years of experience but not so much for someone new to it. I might suggest running 2lbs a week just to make sure he doesn't burn too many cals a couple days and spin his wheels. What you are suggesting is fine with someone that knows the ropes, I suggest keeping it simple to start.

.
I can understand your point. But I hold that at some point, he is going to have to learn to eat. If it were his first cycle...maybe 2lbs a week is sustainable...but I hate to put a guy in the position of being a fat slob when this is all said and over.

But you are right.....you dont have to get that specific about eating. But if you want to progress long term, at some point you are going to have to zero in. (or at least I did).

The take-away, I guess can be, is learn as much about eating and controlling the trend of your weight. If you cant consistently shift the scale either direction at will, I dont think you are getting as much out of your training as you could and you certainlly wont be getting as much out of AAS as what can be.

I agree. OP, put up more info. Lots of guys here with all different kinds of experience. This place is like no other and all good brothers who will give you advice for YOUR goals. But also give you the info and cautions so that you understand the up and down sides. In the end, it is up to you to make those calls.
 
HDH

HDH

TID Board Of Directors
Sep 30, 2011
1,971
763
#18
Yes, everyone has to be able to eat for their goals if they plan to put on and keep what they gain. I only said what I did because we don't have enough info to give solid advice. I stand by 1lb a week being too tight. Your post was about him not eating correctly then you give him a tight diet which gives him less chance for success. If he doesn't know how to eat, he needs to get a feel for putting on and taking off weight. With water fluctuation he can jump up and down 2 to 4 lbs a week.

It can take 3 weeks to even tell what's going on. Then we could find out he's been burning more cals than expected and then we start making progress. Don't forget the 3 weeks it will take him to figure out his maintenance cals. So now we are at 6 weeks and hardly any progress. This is something that's quite possible.

I'm sure this plan works great for an experienced guy like yourself but not so much for someone with less experience. I have noticed that for you it's you way or inferior. I'm not looking to make an enemy here but I'm not sure how else to put it.

I've seen personal trainers that did the same routine for everyone. That's just not "personal" as people are different. More and more people are saving joints and ligaments by not going heavy. All you have to do is tear the muscle down properly.

I also felt the same as SAD, it appeared that you were saying you are almost 50 doing it so he should.

It probably doesn't matter, it's quite possible that he has moved on.
 
macgyver

macgyver

TID Board Of Directors
Nov 24, 2011
1,608
1,021
#19
Yes, everyone has to be able to eat for their goals if they plan to put on and keep what they gain. I only said what I did because we don't have enough info to give solid advice. I stand by 1lb a week being too tight. Your post was about him not eating correctly then you give him a tight diet which gives him less chance for success. If he doesn't know how to eat, he needs to get a feel for putting on and taking off weight. With water fluctuation he can jump up and down 2 to 4 lbs a week.

It can take 3 weeks to even tell what's going on. Then we could find out he's been burning more cals than expected and then we start making progress. Don't forget the 3 weeks it will take him to figure out his maintenance cals. So now we are at 6 weeks and hardly any progress. This is something that's quite possible.

I'm sure this plan works great for an experienced guy like yourself but not so much for someone with less experience. I have noticed that for you it's you way or inferior. I'm not looking to make an enemy here but I'm not sure how else to put it.

I've seen personal trainers that did the same routine for everyone. That's just not "personal" as people are different. More and more people are saving joints and ligaments by not going heavy. All you have to do is tear the muscle down properly.

I also felt the same as SAD, it appeared that you were saying you are almost 50 doing it so he should.

It probably doesn't matter, it's quite possible that he has moved on.

Valid points. I dont mind telling a newb to eat that heavily, but I was thinking that this guy with 5 years of training is well out of newb gains.

In the end, the answer lies somewhere along the spectrum. For long term success, control of intake become more and more critical. But I dont disagree that erring on the side of caution is a way to start also.


Just to be clear, I no longer eat caloric surpluses (or track cals). My progress is tapped out. At least for what I am willing to do to get it also. And approachign 50 I make the choices that are right for me. I gave up only 'bulking' after 14 months of realizing that even with a cycle in the 500-600mg/week range, eating up for 4 months and then dieting down, did not really yeild me any additional mass after I dieted down. I think that was about 5 or 6 years back. For me (again my goals) I just did not see the benefit of going or wanting to rely on higher doseages to gain mass.

At 205 I hold about 10% and before injury had reasonable strength for a guy on the smaller size. 540squat, 635 dead and 425 bench. All mass and strength can be maintained on natural hormone profiles, but running AAS allowed me over the past 6 years or so to gain about 10lbs that I dont think I could have ever gained naturally and hold hit. I could never hit 200 lean naturally. But I was lean at 190. AAS did not really do anything for my strength. In fact, I got weaker over time since I decided to get (and stay leaner). I was 'strongest' when I never dipped below 13-15% bf. Consistently dieting down and staying lower than that, led to overall (lb/lb) strength net losses even though over time with AAS my lean mass went up.

I am not a big dude by any stretch. At 230-235 I look good sized, but feel like crap. I like staying around 205-ish and leaner. Below is a decent example.
But I am not quite in that good a shape now. Right after that pic, I got rear ended and suffered a spinal fracture, and 3 disk injuries. Been trying to just do what I can the past year. More current pic below that. Just trying to find a way to even train lately.

Spent my whole life lifting 'heavy' and had to reevaluate after this last back injury. So 'bulking' is not in the cards for me any longer.

Again.....everyone has different goals. I am not a very big guy, but I never wanted to rely too much on external supps for my physique. They have indeed helped me achieve more and that is the way I approached AAS. Others can do as they choose and there are other ways to get much bigger and probably stronger. I cant speak as to how long one can keep that up though.




 
macgyver

macgyver

TID Board Of Directors
Nov 24, 2011
1,608
1,021
#20
Y I have noticed that for you it's you way or inferior. I'm not looking to make an enemy here but I'm not sure how else to put it.
Wanted to address the above specifically. If you will notice, I always give and state that 'my perspective' and what it based on. I also ALWAYS say that answers to questions are always dependent on one's goals.

You wont ever see my give the advice that running a 1.5gram cycle stacked with orals and growth, but I dont dispute that is also a path people can take. I have ZERO experience with that and I only share knowledge that I actually have. I am not stopping anyone else from sharing THEIR experiences. But like anything else, I can only speak to what I know.

Not looking down on anyone. People are free to make the choices they feel are best. I just give the perspective I can. Some might look at me and say....you are a freaking runt....and I want to be 265 10% at 5'9. They are right. I am super tiny in comparison to a lot of guys out there. If that is someone's goal, they will have to ask those guys how they do it.
 
HDH

HDH

TID Board Of Directors
Sep 30, 2011
1,971
763
#21
Ha, ha, that's funny, I knew you would have pictures posted at that reply.

You work hard and it shows. You can always get bigger but you would need enough anabolics to support it.
 
macgyver

macgyver

TID Board Of Directors
Nov 24, 2011
1,608
1,021
#22
Ha, ha, that's funny, I knew you would have pictures posted at that reply.

You work hard and it shows. You can always get bigger but you would need enough anabolics to support it.

Yea, I have more than once had my balls busted over posting pics. A lot of people think it is for a different reason than what it is. In the end, most advice has to be framed with some contest. I fully realize that a lot of guys would say I am 'tiny' and others may say that would be a place that represents their goals.

I cant tell you the amount of times I have seen conflicting information posted about diet and training, and the guy posting is does not even look like they train.

@HDH, I really have no idea what it would take for me to put on more size. I gave up about 4 years ago. I tried every manipulation of diet I could, even with a 600mg test cycle (most I have ever done) , and it just was not happening for me. I came to the conclusion that it would take probably more than I am willing to do. (which I am OK with).

The biggest thing is we all have different goals. I respect them. I totally respect a powerlifter who wants to stay at 275 and 20%+bf. I get it.

So if I came off wrong, I will be the first to apologize. This is one of the very few places where I will do all I can to not argue with people. Especially vets as they have earned a place here. Truth is, I still feel like a newb in many ways, and so many of the good brothers have gone out of their way to help me in the process.

The coolest thing is that when I first came here, they listened to what I wanted to do and really gave me fantastic advice which is still much of what I have adopted today. There surly is not one blanket response for every question.

One thing I have come to know very well, is that quite a few people, even some guys who have been around a while, dont understand how important the food equation is. That alone is probably the single point of advice I give out the most often since it applies to so many. Natural, or AAS user, learning to eat for your goals is one of the most powerful tools we have. And one where so many people seem to fail.
 
DungeonDweller

DungeonDweller

VIP Member
Mar 21, 2017
811
518
#23
You're in better shape than 99.9% of the world. But post your pic on a meathead forum where some of the 0.1% are and you're going to get opinions & criticism. Use it for learning, motivation, or ignore it, whatever serves you best. I personally thank you for sharing.
 
macgyver

macgyver

TID Board Of Directors
Nov 24, 2011
1,608
1,021
#24
You're in better shape than 99.9% of the world. But post your pic on a meathead forum where some of the 0.1% are and you're going to get opinions & criticism. Use it for learning, motivation, or ignore it, whatever serves you best. I personally thank you for sharing.

Thanks man. Absolutely 0% offence taken. Like I said, I generally figure most here have earned the right to be here and I am not one looking to be offended.

This place certainly is a diverse group also. (which is one of it's strengths). So if I ever forget to 'frame' my advice, know that it is purely from one perspective.

Some guys in incredible shape on here, and also one who have accomplished a ton in lifting. I am always listening and interested in hearing different perspectives.
 
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