Not sure the clinic I use knows what the f they doing.

[Wilson6]

300mg per week with ND seems more like a cycle to me but whatever works for you I guess. Some would likely say the same thing about my doses. I like my levels to be in the 800-1,100 range. I think most Drs around here are pretty conservative and don't do WWE and UFC level TRT.

I think it really boils down to how one feels at a given dose and goals with body composition and perceived QOL and what level of risk one is willing to accept for those goals along with genetics for side effects long term. If one is taking 300 mg/wk (mostly T and some non-C-17 methylated androgens) and feels good, likes the level of strength and body comp at that dose, labs are good and yearly echo is unchanged then one could probably run that dose for life, for someone else maybe not. As you get older metabolism of T decreases, thus less clearance and higher blood levels. Bhasin showed that with the high dosing studies with younger and older guys. In addition, we become androgen insensitive. 100 mg of week 30 years ago was great, now 200 mg/wk is necessary to even get close to feeling normal and fighting the loss of lean bc of aging. Blood levels are fine, but like insulin, anti-depressants and many other drugs, the same blood level can have widely varying effects on different individuals, androgens are no different even though we treat that way). I think we frame HRT or cycle to make ourselves feel better like HRT isn't a cycle, anything more than 300/wk yes and that wouldn't be long term. While not proven and probably never will be, my gut tells me in otherwise healthy guys that are trying to optimize body comp with resistance exercise and diet, a base dose of 200 - 300 mg/wk with maybe a 12 week cycle of up to 500 mg/wk for 10 - 12 weeks once or twice a year (with lower risk androgens) probably will not take any years off of one's life span and probably provide a QOL that would have been otherwise impossible to achieve. BUT, that would be under medical supervision, not just assuming you'll be OK. I believe less for longer vs blast/cruise is better for overall health and will allow one to attain their goals, while it may take longer, gains are maintained vs blowing up and shrinking over and over and subjecting the body to considerable ROS stress. Just my two cents.

 

[Wilson6]

So 10 years ago you would be at 200 per week. What’s happened since then is testosterone blood testing is more sensitive now. Because of the uptick in testosterone scripts, it’s the way for Dr’s to not prescribe medication because you’re in the normal range. I’ve been on the same medication at 200 per week for 12 years and getting labs from the same Big Box blood draw place. Then randomly in 2019 my numbers were the highest range of normal and the values for that normal range were lowered. Granted I was still in the normal range, but then my Dr started asking all sorts of questions. On my last blood draw a few months ago, the manager was also a user and said, insurance companies don’t want to pay for Test Replacement and Dr’a don’t like prescribing it, so the tests were changed for that reason. You need to go by how you are feeling. The AI is good to kee estrogen down, but to much or to little will make you feel like crap.

I have found that replacing some of the TC with ME works better for both E2 management and decreasing erythrocytosis (high Hct) vs AIs. As far as cost goes, a 10 cc vial of TC 200 mg/ml at CVS or Walgreens with GoodRx is less than $40. For labs, they rig the system to try and avoid paying/prescribing, you game it to do the same, skip an inj, get your T checked by an on-line lab first, then have it drawn at the docs. You'll come in where you need to be to stay with the dosing guidelines you've been at. It truly is a shame that it has to be this hard with something so simple.

 

[FlimsyLimbs]

I have found that replacing some of the TC with ME works better for both E2 management and decreasing erythrocytosis (high Hct) vs AIs. As far as cost goes, a 10 cc vial of TC 200 mg/ml at CVS or Walgreens with GoodRx is less than $40. For labs, they rig the system to try and avoid paying/prescribing, you game it to do the same, skip an inj, get your T checked by an on-line lab first, then have it drawn at the docs. You'll come in where you need to be to stay with the dosing guidelines you've been at. It truly is a shame that it has to be this hard with something so simple.

So I scrolled through the abbreviation list over there and didnt see it.... What is ME? Still learning all the lingo here. I kinda feel like this clinic tried to discourage me for pursuing this even tho they are a HRT/Weight loss business. they threw about 2000 dollars worth of tests at me in the beginning. I called up and told them I couldnt afford all the tests and got it down to like a $300 battery of blood tests. Plus its $300 every time I walk into their office.. This shit is brutally expensive. The price tag is what has me considering prohormones and sketchy online gear vendors. Meds arent expensive but goddamn the tests and consults.

 

[gunslinger]

I think it really boils down to how one feels at a given dose and goals with body composition and perceived QOL and what level of risk one is willing to accept for those goals along with genetics for side effects long term. If one is taking 300 mg/wk (mostly T and some non-C-17 methylated androgens) and feels good, likes the level of strength and body comp at that dose, labs are good and yearly echo is unchanged then one could probably run that dose for life, for someone else maybe not. As you get older metabolism of T decreases, thus less clearance and higher blood levels. Bhasin showed that with the high dosing studies with younger and older guys. In addition, we become androgen insensitive. 100 mg of week 30 years ago was great, now 200 mg/wk is necessary to even get close to feeling normal and fighting the loss of lean bc of aging. Blood levels are fine, but like insulin, anti-depressants and many other drugs, the same blood level can have widely varying effects on different individuals, androgens are no different even though we treat that way). I think we frame HRT or cycle to make ourselves feel better like HRT isn't a cycle, anything more than 300/wk yes and that wouldn't be long term. While not proven and probably never will be, my gut tells me in otherwise healthy guys that are trying to optimize body comp with resistance exercise and diet, a base dose of 200 - 300 mg/wk with maybe a 12 week cycle of up to 500 mg/wk for 10 - 12 weeks once or twice a year (with lower risk androgens) probably will not take any years off of one's life span and probably provide a QOL that would have been otherwise impossible to achieve. BUT, that would be under medical supervision, not just assuming you'll be OK. I believe less for longer vs blast/cruise is better for overall health and will allow one to attain their goals, while it may take longer, gains are maintained vs blowing up and shrinking over and over and subjecting the body to considerable ROS stress. Just my two cents.

No I get it. I mean some people feel their best of Test/Drol and Tren. Its whatever works for you. I'm just saying most clinics are pretty careful (at least around here) about handing out doses that would be considered full blown cycles by most "normal" medical professionals. (pro bodybuilding cycles of the 70s) So, while we may feel our best at a given dose technically anything beyond around 100mg per week is a cycle, especially if you start adding multiple compounds. One can justify anything to themselves but thats how most Drs are going to see it and most don't want to be shut down.

Personally I'm on self TRT or at least what I call TRT. I stay at 250mg per week most of the year and hit 500mg plus 2 other compounds once a year for 12-14 weeks. At that level my test is way higher than it should be especially for someone my age. A couple things to take into account. 1) I have been on gear off and on for over 15 years. 2) I get UGL so Its about a 99% guarantee the test is at least somewhat under-dosed.

 

[JackD]

I have found that replacing some of the TC with ME works better for both E2 management and decreasing erythrocytosis (high Hct) vs AIs. As far as cost goes, a 10 cc vial of TC 200 mg/ml at CVS or Walgreens with GoodRx is less than $40. For labs, they rig the system to try and avoid paying/prescribing, you game it to do the same, skip an inj, get your T checked by an on-line lab first, then have it drawn at the docs. You'll come in where you need to be to stay with the dosing guidelines you've been at. It truly is a shame that it has to be this hard with something so simple.

I never thought of using some ME. That’s a good idea. I do have some questions regarding how much your using per week along with the TC. If you have time can you PM me your routine?

You’re right though about using a Good RX coupon for a 10ml vial is usually $40. To the original OP. Clinics do charge a lot, so if you can do your Test C through a Dr, then it’s much cheaper. There are some Dr’s offices that do act like HRT clinics, you just got to research and find them. They are usually small unassuming places in more rural areas.

 

[Wilson6]

I never thought of using some ME. That’s a good idea. I do have some questions regarding how much your using per week along with the TC. If you have time can you PM me your routine?

You’re right though about using a Good RX coupon for a 10ml vial is usually $40. To the original OP. Clinics do charge a lot, so if you can do your Test C through a Dr, then it’s much cheaper. There are some Dr’s offices that do act like HRT clinics, you just got to research and find them. They are usually small unassuming places in more rural areas.

I used to split a 1 cc vial of TC 2x/wk, 27 g 1/2" shallow IM (script). Given they are overfilled that would be about 115 mg twice a week. Cut that to 80 mg of TC every 5 days, added in 30 mg of ND (compounded script) for joints and 50 mg of ME along with the TC every 5 days or split MP 25 twice a week. I try to keep it simple. Adding the ME has helped with libido and ED without question, my phlebo frequency is now longer 14 - 16 weeks vs 10 and for an old guy with alot of fucked up joints, I feel good. I was also on finasteride/dutasteride for years and that was not a good idea. More T did not help with Sx of low DHT, Mast did. Maybe FIN/DUT causes permanent dysfunction of the 5AR enzyme, who knows. Proviron could be another choice but unlike Mast, it is not active in skeletal muscle, thus Mast is a better choice for both DHT and anabolic characteristics similar to T. In low doses < 100 mg/wk it has no effect on LFT or lipids. Really wish Mast was avail compounded. Doctors are so far removed from HRT and AAS, they have no clue anymore and it is very unfortunate. There is big difference between maintaining QOL and trying to look like a genetically altered farm animal relative to androgens. They see it all as the same, it is not.

 

[myosaurus]

Did the person in clinic seem "fuller" than average doc?

 

[FlimsyLimbs]

Did the person in clinic seem "fuller" than average doc?

lol, if you're asking me, no. dude was fairly thin.