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Mid Cycle Bloods

N

n2o666

New Member
Mar 20, 2019
5
0
#1
Have been running the following cycle;

Wk 1-12 - Test-E 500MG (250MG E3.5D)
Wk 1-12 - Mast-E 400MG (200MG E3.5D)
Wk 1-04 - Turinabol 60MG (30MG x 2D)
Wk 1-12 - Proviron 50MG (25MG x 2D)

Running Adex as AI and got to between .25 / .5 MG ED but have switched to Aromasin @ 12.5MG ED last few days.

The week before the bloods below as oral finished I upped the Test-E and Mast-E to 600MG each and pinned about 1 weeks at this dose.

I started to get a little breathless at times and whilst didn't have blood counts for Haemocrit thought I'd donate a pint of blood to see if this improved. Not sure if it did or if was a result of bit of bloat from sodium not drinking enough, cold or just a bit of anxiety.

Got the bloods back (only hormone not blood counts) and Total T is high as expected but SHBG is quite low giving a high calculated Free T. Not too sure if this is a big problem or not but have thought due to this going to lower doses of Test-E and Mast-E to around 500MG per week and also inject EOD as opposed to E3.5D with smaller doses due to low SHBG and ensure more level blood levels. My E is a bit low but hoping switching to Aromasin @ 12.5 MG ED will help as joints seem slightly better (it's only really my elbows where it hurts but also think it is tendons in top of forearms as wrists, knees and hips are fine).

Just curious to see what people make of the bloods and whether anything to worry about;

Mid Cycle Bloods (30 mins after 300 MG Test-E / 300 MG Mast-E)

SHBG - 7.78 nmol/L (Range: 18.3 - 54.1)
Estrogen - 62.8 pmol/L (Range: 41 - 159)
Testosterone - 143 nmol/L (Range: 8.64 - 29)
Free Testosterone - Calc. - 6.14 nmol/L (Range: 0.2 - 0.62)
Free Androgen Index - 1838.05 Ratio (Range: 24 - 104)
Prolactin - 401 mU/L (Range: 86 - 324)


Think in units you guys use on here that equates to for T and E;

Testosterone - 4124 ng/dL
Estrogen - 17.1 pg/mL

Pre Cycle Bloods

SEX HORMONE BINDING GLOB 33 nmol/L (Range: 18.3 - 54.1)
FOLLICLE STIM. HORMONE 5.18 IU/L (Range: 1.5 - 12.4)
LUTEINISING HORMONE 3.37 IU/L (Range: 1.7 - 8.6)
17-Beta OESTRADIOL 98.1 pmol/L (Range: 41 - 159)
TESTOSTERONE 12.5 nmol/L (Range: 8.64 - 29)
Free-Testosterone(Calculated) 0.255 nmol/L (Range: 0.2 - 0.62)
Testosterone/SHBG Ratio 37.88 Ratio (Range: 24 - 104)
PROLACTIN 303 mU/L (Range: 86 - 324)


Think in units you guys use on here that equates to for T and E;

Testosterone = 360.52 ng/dL
Estrogen = 26.69 pg/mL

Prolactin is a bit 25% higher than pre-cycle bloods which not sure what to make off as not using any 19-Nors. I did try 0.25mg Caber when got first bloods but thought may be a bit extreme as just high end of normal. I have ordered some Vitamin B6 P5P and going to start taking at 200MG a day split into two 100MG doses and see when do next bloods what it is.

I'm also going to stop the Proviron or cut down to 25MG to see if that will raise SHBG or will the Masteron / Proviron not actually lower the number on test but just bind to it?

From reading on TRT places the best thing to do with low SHBG is to swap from E7D doses to E3.5 doses so that is why I thought to go to the EOD even with Enanthate esthers.

Would appreciate any input or suggestions.

Thanks
 
HollyWoodCole

HollyWoodCole

Member
Apr 1, 2019
50
22
#2
I know this has been posted for awhile, but a few thoughts.

Don't change up what you are pinning a week prior to getting bloodwork done. Now you have no idea what your levels were the entire cycle.

Your test number looks great for 500-600mg.

Your AI consumption seems very high, especially taking it ED on 500mg of Test with Mast which should help a little in itself. The most I've ever taken an AI regularly is MWF every week. Why are you taking it every day? Do you have any estrogen related side effects? Do you know it to be good? Are you just nervous about gyno?

As you noted your Prolactin is higher than expected and you haven't been running a 19-Nor......19-Nor's are not required to be involved to increase prolactin while on blast.
 
Mike_RN

Mike_RN

Senior Moderators
Staff Member
Aug 13, 2013
1,853
1,335
#3
I think the SHBG is low due to daily use of the Proviron (and to a lesser extent the Masteron). Masteron binds up SHBG which in turn increases Testosterone levels (free and total).

The real question is WHY would you want to increase it? That's exactly the opposite of what you want from a cycle. More free Testosterone.
I'd be more inclined to lower the Test dose to decrease free test over increasing SHBG.
 
N

n2o666

New Member
Mar 20, 2019
5
0
#4
I know this has been posted for awhile, but a few thoughts.

Don't change up what you are pinning a week prior to getting bloodwork done. Now you have no idea what your levels were the entire cycle.

Your test number looks great for 500-600mg.

Your AI consumption seems very high, especially taking it ED on 500mg of Test with Mast which should help a little in itself. The most I've ever taken an AI regularly is MWF every week. Why are you taking it every day? Do you have any estrogen related side effects? Do you know it to be good? Are you just nervous about gyno?

As you noted your Prolactin is higher than expected and you haven't been running a 19-Nor......19-Nor's are not required to be involved to increase prolactin while on blast.
As for gyno always had fat round my chest since childhood so always a bit paranoid about Gyno did increase dose due to bloat but main concerns at time where the breathlessness, which just seemed to be virus.

I've since switched to Aromasin at 12.5mg EOD and added Nolva in at 10mg per day and that seems to keep me where I need to be.

I've got Caber in but just taking 200mg Vitamin B6 P5P per day which will hopefully keep Prolactin in check.

I'm feeling great now with 600MG of each Test E / Mast E per week done EOD shots lowered Proviron to 25mg ED and also started on Var 80MG ED to end this cycle.

As I'm 38 and my total test was quite low 320 at beginning so prob gonna cruise after this cycle either 250 Test-E or 150 Test-E / 100 Mast-E for 6-8 weeks and then drop to a TRT dose of Test-E with maybe some Mast-E thrown in.
 
N

n2o666

New Member
Mar 20, 2019
5
0
#5
I think the SHBG is low due to daily use of the Proviron (and to a lesser extent the Masteron). Masteron binds up SHBG which in turn increases Testosterone levels (free and total).

The real question is WHY would you want to increase it? That's exactly the opposite of what you want from a cycle. More free Testosterone.
I'd be more inclined to lower the Test dose to decrease free test over increasing SHBG.
Didn't know if the Free Test being so high could be a problem and combined with the breathlessness I was experiencing at time was panicking. Everything is okay now and taking Test E / Mast E EOD at lower amounts seems to help even the peaks and troughs and lowered Proviron to 25mg most days and all good.
 
HollyWoodCole

HollyWoodCole

Member
Apr 1, 2019
50
22
#6
The breathlessness is more likely caused by high hematocrit. I've never seen tests like these not include a blood count panel....are you sure they just didn't leave it off or something? I didn't even know you can order them that way, and if you can, I would not advise doing so in the future.

Now, back to one of my original questions: What high E2 sides are/were you experiencing to drive your AI dosage to ED? Now it's EOD but you've added Nolva into the mix as well which was unexpected as you didn't mention having an emergency hormone situation of any sort. Nolva is typically reserved for the end of the cycle....I have run it mid-cycle before but that was because I had run some dbol and had a gyno flare up.
 
N

n2o666

New Member
Mar 20, 2019
5
0
#7
The breathlessness is more likely caused by high hematocrit. I've never seen tests like these not include a blood count panel....are you sure they just didn't leave it off or something? I didn't even know you can order them that way, and if you can, I would not advise doing so in the future.

Now, back to one of my original questions: What high E2 sides are/were you experiencing to drive your AI dosage to ED? Now it's EOD but you've added Nolva into the mix as well which was unexpected as you didn't mention having an emergency hormone situation of any sort. Nolva is typically reserved for the end of the cycle....I have run it mid-cycle before but that was because I had run some dbol and had a gyno flare up.
The high E2 sides was experiencing was slightly itchy nips and also bloat which thought was contributing to breathlessness.

In UK different tests and didn't get full blood panel just hormones (I've ordered lipids and liver separately from another lab also which I've yet to do). I donated some blood and a week later felt better but I'm still not convinced it was all down to that but all good now and do need get a blood panel done to see where we are at.

Looking back I obviously lowered E2 a little too much from bloods but reason switched to Aromasin is I find it easier to dial dose in. I added Nolva in there originally whilst I swapped over from the Adex to the Aromasin but also every few weeks I am running HCG 250MCG EOD to keep the boys going and as can spike E2 that AI cannot handle figured that the Nolva would provide some protection as SERM. Figured as it wasn't effecting anything badly and that doesn't inhibit Aromasin plasma levels in same way as it does with Adex then wouldn't hurt. Also not planning PCT as planning cruise / TRT after cycle. I also read Aromasin doesn't negatively impact cholesterol in same way as Adex and Letro and that Nolva can actually improve lipids on or off cycle.
 
HollyWoodCole

HollyWoodCole

Member
Apr 1, 2019
50
22
#8
The high E2 sides was experiencing was slightly itchy nips and also bloat which thought was contributing to breathlessness.

In UK different tests and didn't get full blood panel just hormones (I've ordered lipids and liver separately from another lab also which I've yet to do). I donated some blood and a week later felt better but I'm still not convinced it was all down to that but all good now and do need get a blood panel done to see where we are at.

Looking back I obviously lowered E2 a little too much from bloods but reason switched to Aromasin is I find it easier to dial dose in. I added Nolva in there originally whilst I swapped over from the Adex to the Aromasin but also every few weeks I am running HCG 250MCG EOD to keep the boys going and as can spike E2 that AI cannot handle figured that the Nolva would provide some protection as SERM. Figured as it wasn't effecting anything badly and that doesn't inhibit Aromasin plasma levels in same way as it does with Adex then wouldn't hurt. Also not planning PCT as planning cruise / TRT after cycle. I also read Aromasin doesn't negatively impact cholesterol in same way as Adex and Letro and that Nolva can actually improve lipids on or off cycle.
Typically taking drugs that aren't necessary is something I consider to be a waste. I could be way off base but it certainly seems like your protocol is fear-induced. Nolva over the long term can and will make your joints and bones hurt...take it if needed but it seems like taking it now is a waste.

Personally I would run the Aromasin MWF and drop the Nolva. Take a couple Bayer 81mg aspirin daily to address the likely hematocrit issue. If you're getting bloat off of a Test/Mast cycle you may want to check your diet a little more closely.
 
N

n2o666

New Member
Mar 20, 2019
5
0
#9
Typically taking drugs that aren't necessary is something I consider to be a waste. I could be way off base but it certainly seems like your protocol is fear-induced. Nolva over the long term can and will make your joints and bones hurt...take it if needed but it seems like taking it now is a waste.

Personally I would run the Aromasin MWF and drop the Nolva. Take a couple Bayer 81mg aspirin daily to address the likely hematocrit issue. If you're getting bloat off of a Test/Mast cycle you may want to check your diet a little more closely.
You are probably right I was curious with the Nolva as I've always carried a lot of fat round my chest since childhood even when really low weight / body fat so wanted to see if taking some on cycle would reduce this a little (I am going to have surgery later this year and get sorted once and for all). I didn't think a low dose of 10mg a day for rest of cycle would be that problematic but will cut it out and see if anything impacted.

I would say I am prone to E2 / aromatase activity due to where my body stores fat so will keep Aromasin @ 12.5 MG EOD as that works out 3.5 times a week instead of MWF at 3 times.

I can feel my E2 levels getting low by how my joints are and also sounds weird but true from something I read at T-Nation is orgasm intensity, I dropped E2 a bit low other day and it was weakest orgasm ever had but luckily I rebound quicker from low E2 caused by Aromasin than Adex.

I keep meaning to get some 81mg Aspirin which I will do I have also started taking 7-10g high quality fish oil a day as heard that helps in a similar way for Hematocrit issue which the breathlessness is okay now but should help prevent a potential occurrence.

Diet is spot on from macros think bloat is from Nicotine Lozenges which I have a problem with and believe fairly high in sodium and not enough water at times.

Thanks for your help.
 
HollyWoodCole

HollyWoodCole

Member
Apr 1, 2019
50
22
#10
You are probably right I was curious with the Nolva as I've always carried a lot of fat round my chest since childhood even when really low weight / body fat so wanted to see if taking some on cycle would reduce this a little (I am going to have surgery later this year and get sorted once and for all). I didn't think a low dose of 10mg a day for rest of cycle would be that problematic but will cut it out and see if anything impacted.

I would say I am prone to E2 / aromatase activity due to where my body stores fat so will keep Aromasin @ 12.5 MG EOD as that works out 3.5 times a week instead of MWF at 3 times.

I can feel my E2 levels getting low by how my joints are and also sounds weird but true from something I read at T-Nation is orgasm intensity, I dropped E2 a bit low other day and it was weakest orgasm ever had but luckily I rebound quicker from low E2 caused by Aromasin than Adex.

I keep meaning to get some 81mg Aspirin which I will do I have also started taking 7-10g high quality fish oil a day as heard that helps in a similar way for Hematocrit issue which the breathlessness is okay now but should help prevent a potential occurrence.

Diet is spot on from macros think bloat is from Nicotine Lozenges which I have a problem with and believe fairly high in sodium and not enough water at times.

Thanks for your help.
Nicotine will also negatively impact hematocrit, at least I know it does from smoking cigarettes.

I would suggest dropping those lozenges asap. I used to have a hematocrit protocol I did which provided relief to me but any proof of its effectiveness is anecdotal at best. YMMV.

Coromega Fish Oil Packs - 8g's daily
Naringin 1g daily
2x 81mg Bayer aspirin
Heavy daily antioxidant intake

I think dropping the Nolva and getting to a more spaced out and solid AI protocol will help you overall.
 
L

liamsmith2796

New Member
Apr 20, 2019
4
0
#11
I mean this seems like a very very dry cycle. I would assume you want your SHBG, estrogen, and prolactin as low as you can without getting out of hand. Personally, I would love the pro iron to 25 just because I think you’d still get the benefits of it and only have to use half of what you’re currently using. With the nolva I wouldn’t expect it to reverse gyno at all. I’ve had guns since puberty and the only thing that has helped has been... nothing. Honestly. Nolva can kind lower the swelling and aromasin can help as well but nothing can really get rid of guns. Hope this helped :) this thread is so insightful
 
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