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Leave E2 alone

Bigtex

Bigtex

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Aug 14, 2012
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Great Video - patients taking testosterone + anastrozole did not reduce visceral fat mass when compared to testosterone alone. Testosterone by itself is anti-inflammatory AI's prevent this which can lead to cardiac damage.

What are the benefits of micro-dosing and IM vs sub-q?





Ng Tang Fui M, Prendergast LA, Dupuis P, Raval M, Strauss BJ, Zajac JD, Grossmann M. Effects of testosterone treatment on body fat and lean mass in obese men on a hypocaloric diet: a randomised controlled trial. BMC Med. 2016 Oct 7;14(1):153. doi: 10.1186/s12916-016-0700-9. PMID: 27716209; PMCID: PMC5054608.


Conclusions
Among obese men with a low to low-normal testosterone typical for the majority of obese men, testosterone treatment augmented diet-induced loss of total fat and visceral fat mass, and preserved lean mass so that, in contrast to placebo-treated men who lost both lean and fat mass, diet-induced weight loss during testosterone treatment was almost exclusively due to the loss of body fat.

Discussion
The major novel findings of this RCT are that, among obese men with low to low-normal testosterone submitted to a weight loss program, testosterone treatment decreased total fat mass and visceral adipose tissue, and protected against loss of total and appendicular lean mass.

Holland AM, Roberts MD, Mumford PW, Mobley CB, Kephart WC, Conover CF, Beggs LA, Balaez A, Otzel DM, Yarrow JF, Borst SE, Beck DT. Testosterone inhibits expression of lipogenic genes in visceral fat by an estrogen-dependent mechanism. J Appl Physiol (1985). 2016 Sep 1;121(3):792-805. doi: 10.1152/japplphysiol.00238.2016. Epub 2016 Aug 18. PMID: 27539493.

Overall, these findings indicate that the lipolytic and antilipogenic effects of TEST are enhanced by aromatase activity, indicating both androgenic and estrogenic regulation of adiposity in male visceral adipose tissue. Future research evaluating the time-course responses of visceral adipose tissue to TEST administration with and without aromatase inhibition would assist in elucidating the androgen/estrogen-mediated pathways regulating adiposity.



Steiner BM, Berry DC. The Regulation of Adipose Tissue Health by Estrogens. Front Endocrinol (Lausanne). 2022 May 26;13:889923. doi: 10.3389/fendo.2022.889923. PMID: 35721736; PMCID: PMC9204494.


Sebo ZL, Rodeheffer MS. Testosterone metabolites differentially regulate obesogenesis and fat distribution. Mol Metab. 2021 Feb;44:101141. doi: 10.1016/j.molmet.2020.101141. Epub 2020 Dec 9. PMID: 33307216; PMCID: PMC7772371.


Juang PS, Peng S, Allehmazedeh K, Shah A, Coviello AD, Herbst KL. Testosterone with dutasteride, but not anastrazole, improves insulin sensitivity in young obese men: a randomized controlled trial. J Sex Med. 2014 Feb;11(2):563-73. doi: 10.1111/jsm.12368. Epub 2013 Nov 6. PMID: 24344872.


Cruz-Topete D, Dominic P, Stokes KY. Uncovering sex-specific mechanisms of action of testosterone and redox balance. Redox Biol. 2020 Apr;31:101490. doi: 10.1016/j.redox.2020.101490. Epub 2020 Mar 5. PMID: 32169396; PMCID: PMC7212492.


ESTRADIOL Ultra Sensitive (LC/MS) Blood Test

This ultrasensitive estradiol test is recommended for men. The commonly used estradiol test may overestimate estradiol in men. That test uses immunoassay technology that cannot differentiate C-Reactive Protein (involved in inflammation) from estradiol, so it reads the combination of the two as estradiol. This ultrasensitive estradiol test is based on liquid chromatography/mass spectrometry (LC/MS), an assay technology that does not have that limitation

 
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genetic freak

genetic freak

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Dec 28, 2015
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You can put every study up known to man, but I know PLENTY of guys who cannot get the last bit of fat off without burying their estrogen. That being said, I wouldn't do that until it was the last resort. Just keep it in the 20-40 range and you should be good.
 
MorganKane

MorganKane

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Nov 12, 2012
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On 200mg of test cyp a week my estrogen creeps up.
I lose my sex drive and erections after a while.
Using 1mg of arimidex almost every week works for me.

So all the studies, etc just dont match my personal experience.

Recently I stopped taking arimidex for a while.
Lost my sex drive, soft erections.
Started back up and back to normal.
having blood work done next week, looking forward to see the numbers now.
 
SAD

SAD

TID Board Of Directors
Feb 3, 2011
3,806
2,609
I respond better to test, even high dose, without any AI at all.

I took a few small doses of aromasin late last year while battling deca/test prolactin/estrogen issues, and my joints flared up for a month. Once I let everything come back to its own equilibrium (without the deca), the feel significantly better.

Always been like this. I need my E2 to creep up with my testosterone, proportionally of course. Then again, I’ve never tried to lose all my fat, or much of it at all, lol. Strength sports and whatnot.
 
genetic freak

genetic freak

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Dec 28, 2015
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I have two guys who have a test to estrogen ratio of 7:1. No matter if they are running TRT or they go up a bit, it will be 7:1. Those guys also are not very responsive to AI's. Aromasin does very little. Arimidex hits a little better, but maybe gets them to a 12:1. If they want 20:1 they have to add primo and/or masteron.

I am a 12:1 guy. If I run masteron at a 1:1 with test I go to around 15:1. If I run test with primo at 2:1 then I go to around 20:1. Currently running 40 mg test cyp/20 mg primo e a day and test came back at 2002 and E2 at 93. I knew my E2 was high, because erections were plentiful, but finishing was nearly impossible, which is a sign of high E2. I added in some arimidex, no issues now.
 
W

Wilson6

VIP Member
Dec 17, 2019
1,015
1,761
I have two guys who have a test to estrogen ratio of 7:1. No matter if they are running TRT or they go up a bit, it will be 7:1. Those guys also are not very responsive to AI's. Aromasin does very little. Arimidex hits a little better, but maybe gets them to a 12:1. If they want 20:1 they have to add primo and/or masteron.

I am a 12:1 guy. If I run masteron at a 1:1 with test I go to around 15:1. If I run test with primo at 2:1 then I go to around 20:1. Currently running 40 mg test cyp/20 mg primo e a day and test came back at 2002 and E2 at 93. I knew my E2 was high, because erections were plentiful, but finishing was nearly impossible, which is a sign of high E2. I added in some arimidex, no issues now.
GF, E2 in pg/ml and T in ng/dl relative to ratios? ie 93 pg/ml E2 to 2002 ng/dl T = 1 : 21.5?
 
MorganKane

MorganKane

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Nov 12, 2012
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Got the result back from latest blood work.
I was on 200mg of pharma test C from Empower per week and 1mg of armidex (ugl).
10 days after the last shot my test was 666 and estrogen 39.
 
rAJJIN

rAJJIN

TID Board Of Directors
Nov 30, 2011
1,057
934
I let mine go unchecked in the past.
Depending on what you’re using and at what dose I think it’s a good idea to monitor.

The old test, deca, dbol stack Is what had mine off the charts.
 
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