How do you recognize weaknesses?

[Go Away]

About to start a new training cycle to peak for a meet in about 12 weeks and have a question for all you monsters and geniuses out there:

How do you recognize weakness in a lift?

You hear it all the time from the experts on YouTube, PL seminars devoted to spreading knowledge... Things like, "You missed the lockup due to an obvious weakness in your hamstrings and lower back," or "More triceps work to help your sticking point," "make sure you work on hip mobility to get down in the hole better," etc.

What resources do you use to figure out where your muscle weaknesses are when falling at a lift or breaking down in form?

Books, websites, videos, word of mouth advice - any and all will be appreciated.

My friends and I are all preparing for the same meet and want to dial in our programs to attack our weaknesses. Some have obvious mobility issues, some have tiny triceps, some have sand in their vagina...

But we all have a lot of work to do and want to maximize our Winter adventure.

I appreciate each and every one of yall - TID is responsible for every major jump I make in my powerlifting journey. Love this shit!

 

[Bullmuscle7]

Sounds strange to hear you talk about weakness after what I've seen of late. But I understand your question.

I always try to associate with an expert (meaning someone decently experienced in lifting who actually lifts)

I can feel certain weaknesses in my body like my core for example but how that translates into knowing how it effects certain lifts, I rely on that expert person.

Books don't do much for me cause I'm too dumb to figure them out same with vids and other media.

My method is this: Go to my gym when the PLer's are there and ask the leader brother (who is big, he lifts and competes and has huge numbers and knows his shit inside and out) and say: "I'm having trouble with this"
He always knows...He always is generous to help...And he appreciates that I listen. We lift side by side although our programs are different. He has helped me move forward past many a weakness.

Thats my 2 cents worth brother. In essence you just did that by posting your question here at this excellent place.

 

[Turbolag]

GA I think to recognize a weakness it's important to video yourself and share the video with other lifters.

 

[porky little keg]

It depends on what level you're at in your training.

By this point, I'm a little more able to figure out my own weaknesses. I've worked with enough top level lifters and coaches and have been around a while. Sometimes I can do this by feel sometimes by watching video of myself.

Still, I prefer to have a coach or good teammate help. Little things like "your upper back rounded on that squat" can cue me in to what the next step is. But, again, I'm at a place where I have multiple world champion and all time greats for teammates. If that doesn't help I can call several personal friends who are all time greats and ask..... one of the guys with a 3k total will probably know... they didn't get there by accident.

For a lifter who isn't at this point yet, you have 2 options.
The best option is to go and make the effort to find the best team in your area and become a regular. Make the drive, put in the work, and listen. I work full time, I've done grad school and a 20hr a week internship at night, worked 2nd jobs, and still make the 1 hour (each way) trip to train with my team 4 times a week..... if you want it bad enough, you'll do it.
The other option is to take some video of you lifting heavy enough to show a breakdown - either a miss or a change from your usual form. Post it everywhere and hope that the people answering your questions actually know something and aren't just talking out of their ass. The internet is a great way to get a lot of advice - the tough part is figuring out what is coming from a person who lives it and understands it and what is just some kid who reads a lot of T-nation and thinks his 315 ass-to-grass squat makes him an expert.

 

[Docd187123]

You look for sticking points in your lifts, you video your form and watch for where it breaks down, get form checks from others, if you miss a lift you need to gauge where you got stuck, etc

 

[porky little keg]

The other option - and I can't believe I forgot this.

If you are way too far away to get with a team, or you work an ungodly job and can't train regularly with a group....

There are a lot of pros who do online coaching. Some will watch every video of every movement and fine-tooth-comb it. They will adjust your plan as you progress, and they will give lots of advice. Some will charge you lots of money and copy+paste the same plan for you that they paste for everyone ( that CAN be a good thing. Simple is GOOD) without ever adjusting it.

If you go with one of these guys expect to pay for it..... usually a few hundred to get a plan to start and a hundred or so a month to adjust and check in as you go......

If you put in the effort and drive to a team it's better, but money can be traded for effort by just paying someone to coach you.
Expect a plan that's a lot more simple than you'd guess it would be, but if you listen it'll help a lot.

Brian Carrol does really well for a few people I know. He's a bright guy and a good person - funny as hell too.
Eric Lilliebridge doesn't do as much hands-on stuff but his routines are brutally simple and work.
Dave Hoff absolutely knows his stuff. I don't know any athletes he's coached but he's done a lot to help me out, tweaked my form and pointed out a few weak points I hadn't noticed. Under his high-as-hell exterior he's a really bright guy.
Rob Luyando is so good at writing bench training that a few of the other guys' athletes still go to Rob just to write their bench training. He's a really good friend and a fantastic person. His coaching is simple but very good.
I don't think that Donnie Thompson does online training. He's got an amazing passion for the sport and is just about the only guy not trying to make a million off of it. But, he's done more to help me with my training than anyone else. If you can beg him for help, make the man take some sort of compensation if he does.... he's THE MAN.

Lesser known, but probably more knowledgeable than any of them is Matt Minuth. Hit him up on facebook. He won best overall lifter at WPC worlds this year and has multiple 2500+ totals at 220. I've seen him raw squat over 800, raw bench close to 600, and he looks like a bodybuilder while staying brutally strong. He's a certified trainer, really knows his stuff, and I've seen him work with athletes and can absolutely vouch for his coaching as being fantastic.

 

[Go Away]

You look for sticking points in your lifts, you video your form and watch for where it breaks down, get form checks from others, if you miss a lift you need to gauge where you got stuck, etc

I agree with you and have been filming all our working sets for the past 6 weeks.

You mentioned to watch for where form breaks down and also to gauge where you got stuck. So once we see where form breaks down how do we figure out which muscles need to be worked harder due to weaknesses?

For example:
If you don't lock your bench out correctly you can surmise that more triceps work might be needed, correct? Well, what about when your knees start shooting inward on a tough squat? Where is the weakness and why do you say the weakness is there? I had problems wording the post so maybe I didn't explain it correctly, but answering these types of questions was my intent.

It depends on what level you're at in your training.
I'm a little more able to figure out my own weaknesses. Sometimes I can do this by feel sometimes by watching video of myself.

I am at a very novice stage - competed in one meet and have a ton to learn. Only been training like a powerlifter for about 2 years total... I'm hoping by asking a ton of questions and whoring my newbie-self out for the better of the community that the things people are afraid to ask will be covered. I've looked back on some of the questions I asked when I first joined TID and they are horrid!

Little things like "your upper back rounded on that squat" can cue me in to what the next step is.

This is a perfect example of the type of understanding I want to have. Why would your upper back round on a squat? What does that indicate?

For a lifter who isn't at this point yet, you have 2 options.
The best option is to go and make the effort to find the best team in your area and become a regular. Make the drive, put in the work, and listen. I work full time, I've done grad school and a 20hr a week internship at night, worked 2nd jobs, and still make the 1 hour (each way) trip to train with my team 4 times a week..... if you want it bad enough, you'll do it.

Reached out to some gyms in my area to assess the situation and emailed a few state record holders hoping for some insight...

The other option is to take some video of you lifting heavy enough to show a breakdown - either a miss or a change from your usual form. Post it everywhere and hope that the people answering your questions actually know something and aren't just talking out of their ass. The internet is a great way to get a lot of advice - the tough part is figuring out what is coming from a person who lives it and understands it and what is just some kid who reads a lot of T-nation and thinks his 315 ass-to-grass squat makes him an expert.

Great idea. I've started that here, time to find some other places worth a shit.

There are a lot of pros who do online coaching. Some will watch every video of every movement and fine-tooth-comb it. They will adjust your plan as you progress, and they will give lots of advice. Some will charge you lots of money and copy+paste the same plan for you that they paste for everyone ( that CAN be a good thing. Simple is GOOD) without ever adjusting it.

If you go with one of these guys expect to pay for it..... usually a few hundred to get a plan to start and a hundred or so a month to adjust and check in as you go......

If you put in the effort and drive to a team it's better, but money can be traded for effort by just paying someone to coach you.
Expect a plan that's a lot more simple than you'd guess it would be, but if you listen it'll help a lot.

Brian Carrol does really well for a few people I know. He's a bright guy and a good person - funny as hell too.
Eric Lilliebridge doesn't do as much hands-on stuff but his routines are brutally simple and work.
Dave Hoff absolutely knows his stuff.
Rob Luyando is so good at writing bench training that a few of the other guys' athletes still go to Rob just to write their bench training.
I don't think that Donnie Thompson does online training. If you can beg him for help, make the man take some sort of compensation if he does.... he's THE MAN.

Lesser known, but probably more knowledgeable than any of them is Matt Minuth. Hit him up on facebook.

Will be reaching out to them shortly. Your response has lit a fire under my ass reminiscent of Vesuvius! Thank you.

 

[Docd187123]

I agree with you and have been filming all our working sets for the past 6 weeks.

You mentioned to watch for where form breaks down and also to gauge where you got stuck. So once we see where form breaks down how do we figure out which muscles need to be worked harder due to weaknesses?

For some of the vets like BI, POB, Porky I'd imagine they already know which muscles address which weaknesses. For someone like me, I usually just go to Starting Strength by Rippetoe. Great book and explains in detail about how each muscle contributes to each lift.

For example:
If you don't lock your bench out correctly you can surmise that more triceps work might be needed, correct? Well, what about when your knees start shooting inward on a tough squat? Where is the weakness and why do you say the weakness is there? I had problems wording the post so maybe I didn't explain it correctly, but answering these types of questions was my intent.

The closer you get to a max on a lift the more form breakdown you'll experience.

External rotation of the femur is what keeps your knees out. There are 9 muscles which pull the femurs laterally.

External rotation occurs when you make your right femur rotate clockwise and your left femur rotate counterclockwise, as when you stand up and pivot on your heels to rotate your toes away from each other. There are at least nine muscles that perform this function: the gluteus medius, minimus, and maximus, the adductor minimus, the quadratus femoris, the inferior gemellus, the obturator internus, the superior gemellus, and the piriformis. (Notice that the external rotators include two of the abductor muscles.) External rotation is critical to stabilizing gait mechanics through the stride. As it relates to our analysis, the action of rotating the femurs out is what actually occurs when you shove your knees out on the way down to the bottom of the squat. Prove this to yourself by sitting in a chair and rotating your femurs the same way you would if you were standing up and pivoting on your heels to point your toes out. Using the external rotators to set the knees in a position parallel to the feet makes all kinds of sense when you consider that they are in an effective position to do it and the TFL is not. So shoving the knees out at the top of the squat, and keeping them there so that the adductors can do their job, is accomplished by the muscles that rotate the hips externally. These muscles anchor the thigh position that allows for both good squat depth and the more effective use of all the muscles of the hips.

you would say the weakness is there bc those are the muscles specifically tasked with anchoring the femur in a laterally extended position which in turn keeps your knees out.

 

[porky little keg]

Most veterans know how to address these issues because we either have addressed them ourselves or have coached lifters through them...

Some breakdowns are just a small ( or HUGE) form issue.... sometimes a simple cue is all that's needed, and with the lifter concentrating on the issue it gets better. In my case, I had to totally change my bar placement, set up, and unrack to get past a plateau in my squat..... I got so far doing it one way, but had to go back a step and fix the issue to take the next step.... That change came from seeking out people who are better than my coach and learning from them...... thousands of miles traveled and countless weekends on the road, but that's what it took to fix the form issue.

Some breakdowns are a muscle issue. I had relatively weak hips and was relying a lot of really extreme squat gear for pop out of the hole. It was on a trip to Westside where Louie and a few lifters I respect really called me on it. So I let my gear out a lot and spent a few months working my hips so my knees wouldn't suck in and I wouldn't lose a squat in the hole...... it took a lot of abductor and adductor work against bands ( we didn't have the machine for them at the time), it took a lot of belt squats and belt squat lock outs, and ultra wide sumo deadlifts. I also corrected an ankle issue that was causing knee instability.... I learned the hip weakness at Westside, but the band work from Matt Minuth, some more hip work from Laura Sweatt at her gym, and the ankle stuff from Donnie Thompson at his gym.


(I know that we already PMed about this, but I'm putting all of this out here for anyone else following this thread.)

There's the trend.... all of this came from seeking people out. Long drives and a few flights got me hours in the gym with these people where they could help me out......


Sounds like a lot, but for me to get from a top 10 lifter to a top 5 lifter that's what it took...... the good news is that it's exponentially easier to go from off of the charts to top 100 or top 50.
If you notice a weakness ( I always miss at the lockout - for example) - post up a video and ask.

But, and it's a big but(t)...... it's simple. Keep it simple. If your answer is a science quote... run... weak lockout- work speed off of the chest, train against bands, train narrow grip..... it's simple.