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Goodbye Obamacare

Gms585

Gms585

VIP Member
Mar 17, 2017
754
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Agreed. Yet none of those countries are "home of the free" either. I admit that I'm a libertarian, and consequently when weighing the trade off between liberty and security I always lean toward more liberty. Socializing health care isn't evil, it just results in a lower standard of living, IMO.

If it makes you feel any better, I think that the tide is moving in your favor. More and more Americans seem willing to hand over bits and pieces of individual liberty so that they can at least perceive to be more secure.

Under a proper constitutional structure, the federal gov't would have absolute NO role in health care in any way, shape or form, and each of the states would decide how much or how little they wish to regulate insurance, health care, etc. that would be great because each state would likely do things differently and over time it would become more evident that certain things are working better than others. With a single federal solution, we'll never know whether other things could work better.

Believe it or not I lean libertarian also. However, I think the short list of governmental responsibilities should include keeping us healthy. I just think it's not a good thing to have privatized. Remember WE are supposed to be the government. If we booted the lobbyists and coprate money out of DC and instituted term limits on legislative and held judicial to stricter standards I doubt this hate/fear of government we all have as a society would be as pronounced. The real problem is we no longer see the government state or federal as an extension of our own will. It's become this boogie man. Which is the opposite of what the land of the free should be. Imo.


You're right; I'm wrong.
America sucks ass.
I'm taking my flag down.

Nice discussion bro. See a couple posts back how I was like I don't really want to participate to much? Yea wonder why.
 
JR Ewing

JR Ewing

MuscleHead
Nov 9, 2012
1,329
420
Goddamn Socialists are gonna ruin it for all of us. Anytime we put People or Planet ahead of Profit, we all lose.

The planet has been here for billions of years, and will be here long after we're gone.

As for people, most of us could and should be able to take care of ourselves as adults - we shouldn't need government to tell us and decide for us what is best for us.

Some people (a small % of the population) do need government help, and a few even need every single thing taken care of for them by others. But the rest of us should be ashamed of ourselves IMO if we blow money at the strip club or on a fancier car than we need instead of buying our own health insurance.
 
JR Ewing

JR Ewing

MuscleHead
Nov 9, 2012
1,329
420
What is scary to me in single payer health care is that we're socializing the costs of health care. That means that a fellow taxpayer is having to pay taxes based on the health of his fellow taxpayers. Rationally, this taxpayer now has an interest in whether you're living a "healthy" lifestyle, right? That only makes sense. For example, I don't care if you go on an expensive vacation, but once I'm paying for part of it, I'm suddenly very interested in how much your lifestyle choices cost. So socializing the costs of health care fundamentally changes the relationship between the individual citizen and the state. If my taxes are going up because you're overweight, or not sleeping enough, or smoking, or taking steroids, or eating too much birthday cake, or sky diving, or whatever, now I have an interest in your life, and am more tempted to want to regulate your behavior.

Conceivably, every aspect of your life touches on your health. We're basically giving the government permission to regulate anything they want to in the name of "public health', because they're paying for it. I can't really blame the gov't for wanting to do that, but I don't want the gov't infringing upon my personal life choices. That's a big problem to me.

Exactly. I shake my head at the left's collectivist "we're all in this together!" BS propaganda. Especially since those who push this nonsense are the uber-rich and / or powerful elites in DC and elsewhere who will make certain they are exempted from these controls they want to force upon everyone else - state-run healthcare, higher taxes, more and stricter regulations, etc.

I want to be allowed to keep at least half my money, and to be left alone as long as I'm not infringing upon anyone else's rights. I want nothing more from the government than a strong military, a secure border, and common sense policies on national defense, foreign policy, immigration, and perhaps emergency response to natural disasters and such if and when we can afford it.

I do not want state-run healthcare or big brother telling me what I can and cannot eat or drink or how much money I am allowed to earn legally. Those who need help should be able to have their basic needs taken care of, but they shouldn't expect to live an upper middle class lifestyle if they can't earn a living for themselves.

I wouldn't be able to look at my myself in the mirror and call myself a man (as a healthy 47 year old with no serious health problems) if I could not find a way to pay for my own health insurance, housing, utilities, groceries, transportation, and also take care of funding my own retirement.
 
DaSarge

DaSarge

VIP Member
Nov 20, 2014
709
351
"I think the short list of governmental responsibilities should include keeping us healthy".

WTF???
Are you for reals???
You want people like Trump and Pelosi to be responsible for your health???
Hell, maybe we could have Chris Christy put a diet plan together for you???
Perhaps we could have Ted Kennedy show you how to perform CPR, and Harry Reid could show you the proper way to use an exercise band???
Stick around broline...You're a never ending source of humor...
 
Gms585

Gms585

VIP Member
Mar 17, 2017
754
485
I keep telling myself I'm not going to get into this. Yet here I am.
DaSarge I know you read the whole statement. You and I both know damn well if the other things I want :
" booted the lobbyists and corporate money out of DC and instituted term limits on legislative and held judicial to stricter standards"
as well as NO OPT OUT.
This would work. Most of the rest of the world has it. We are being dumb not having it. Just like the metric system. Dumb that we resist. Somehow living in the past has become freedom in the minds of "conservatives"
People like Trump, Pelosi, Christy should never have been elected. Obviously I dont want them in charge of health care. I dont want them in charge of traffic lights or road painting.
I want competent capable leader who represent the people in charge.

JR... Name one country with socialized health care where they tell you how much you can earn or what you can eat?!?!
You claim to be this successful worldly guy. Have you been to Europe? If so did you have a actual conversation with anyone?
and this statement -
"I wouldn't be able to look at my myself in the mirror and call myself a man (as a healthy 47 year old with no serious health problems) if I could not find a way to pay for my own health insurance, housing, utilities, groceries, transportation, and also take care of funding my own retirement."
Is just wow. Honestly.
Let me give you some numbers:
average annual cost of health insurance - $3,500
average annual housing cost - $10,000
average annual utility cost - $7,000
average annual grocery cost - $6,500
average annual transportation cost - $9,000
average annual necessities according to JR - $36,000
average annual income - $56,500
Left over monies - $20,500
This is with NO debt figured in which FYI the average american holds around 8-10,000 in credit card debt, 40-50,000 in student loan debt.
I mean honestly you cant be so blind to what it means to live in this time and place that you think everything is hunky dory. 15% of this country lives BELOW the poverty line.
 
DaSarge

DaSarge

VIP Member
Nov 20, 2014
709
351
We could put Hillary in charge of Yoga classes.
Bill Clinton or John Edwards could be in charge of Marriage and Family Counseling.
Dennis Hastert could provide specialized Child Counseling.
Marion Barry or Obama could head up Narcotics Anonymous.
Lester Crawford could be put back in charge of the Food & Drug Administration.
George Bush could lead Alcoholics Anonymous.
Rob Ford could be a special assistant to Obama.
Michelle Obama could specialize in child nutrition.
They're all specialists in the field!
PERFECT!!!
 
JR Ewing

JR Ewing

MuscleHead
Nov 9, 2012
1,329
420
JR... Name one country with socialized health care where they tell you how much you can earn or what you can eat?!?!
You claim to be this successful worldly guy. Have you been to Europe? If so did you have a actual conversation with anyone?
and this statement -
"I wouldn't be able to look at my myself in the mirror and call myself a man (as a healthy 47 year old with no serious health problems) if I could not find a way to pay for my own health insurance, housing, utilities, groceries, transportation, and also take care of funding my own retirement."
Is just wow. Honestly.
Let me give you some numbers:
average annual cost of health insurance - $3,500
average annual housing cost - $10,000
average annual utility cost - $7,000
average annual grocery cost - $6,500
average annual transportation cost - $9,000
average annual necessities according to JR - $36,000
average annual income - $56,500
Left over monies - $20,500
This is with NO debt figured in which FYI the average american holds around 8-10,000 in credit card debt, 40-50,000 in student loan debt.
I mean honestly you cant be so blind to what it means to live in this time and place that you think everything is hunky dory. 15% of this country lives BELOW the poverty line.

FYI, I do not take you the least bit seriously. I do not have the time to continue to repeat myself over and over to someone who is either unable or unwilling to read and understand my posts, and to remember the points I make.

How many times have told you for instance that I have traveled to many countries?

How many times have I said that those who need help here should get it?

How many times have I said that I personally liked things better 8+ years ago when my health insurance was much cheaper? But that doesn't mean I want the govt to take care of it for me - I want them to leave me alone and just stick to trying in earnest to help those who need it - I do not need it, and my annual income usually exceeds $56,500 very early in the year...

I am an expert (though certainly not an all-knowing expert) on personal finance, retirement planning, investing, etc. I do not need you to explain basic household budgeting to me at all. Those who need help should get it. But many people do spend too much on transportation, housing, credit cards, etc. I used to see it all day, every day when I worked in consumer lending and retail banking many years ago.

There are not very many other countries where my small business would earn anywhere near what it does here.

I've come to assume you're either a troll or otherwise not the most worldly, mature person. How do you expect to enforce some sort of rule that NO ONE would be able to opt out of the implementation of your grand big govt fantasies, for example? Do you not know that the rich and the powerful will always buy themselves out of these things?

If you ever expect me to take you the least bit seriously, perhaps you can read through some of the 1200+ posts I've made on this board in the past 5 years or so and take notes, or print them out and highlight the main points or whatever - so you quit wasting your time and mine regurgitating the same shit over and over that I've already addressed, and on questioning my worldliness and personal success - not that that matters.
 
Gms585

Gms585

VIP Member
Mar 17, 2017
754
485
FYI the feeling is 100% mutual.

All you do is repeat yourself and produce 0 evidence to support your claims. So cool.

You wont name these mystery countries because ?

They don't exist. You made a completely false statement to support your narrative.

"what I can and cannot eat or drink or how much money I am allowed to earn legally"

What socialized health care country outside of extreme cases like Cuba or Venzuela is that the case?

You make very pretensions comments about how successful, smart and worldly you are. Over and Over and Over. With this attitude that anyone who hasn't achieved what you supposedly have must not be trying or must not be worth while.

Then the minute someone comes into your world with a different opinion and debates you; you become quit hostile and insulting.

I'll tell you this in my meager, sad, short life and basic unlearned time on this planet on the boards I have noticed the more people tell you how this or that they are... well It is the internet.

I'm done talking politics on this board. I wont do it anymore. For now I'll stick with fitness, nutrition and PED's. Hopefully we never disagree on that or I'll have to find out how superior at those you are as well.
 
tommyguns2

tommyguns2

Senior Moderators
Staff Member
Dec 25, 2010
6,311
4,997
I'd like to see the EU attempt to socialize their healthcare across their state lines, so that people in Denmark and Sweden are having to contribute to the costs of healthcare for other EU members in Turkey and Greece. That's what people want when you talk about single payer in the U.S. One socialized system for about 320 million people across 50 very different states. It changes the equation immensely, at least in my opinion.

Plus, things are culturally different in various countries. Up until just 15-20 years ago, the countries in the EU were relatively ethnically and culturally homogenous. Over the next 10-20 years things will look quite different, and I'll be interested to see how ethnic Danes or Swedes will feel about their health care taxes soaring as a bunch of people who are not Danes or Swedes are in their country, working less than they are (or not at all) and getting a bunch of free health care off the sweat of their brow. Who knows, it may go nice and smoothly, but I suspect otherwise. Time will tell.
 
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