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Goodbye Obamacare

DungeonDweller

DungeonDweller

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Mar 21, 2017
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Socialism = Communism = Scary = Evil = Cant Work = Un-American = ISIS
Socialism = Fascism/Progressivism too... equally evil.

Socialized healthcare or socialized healthcare insurance might be able to work if you pour enough money into it... for a while. But its just a nail in the coffin. Eventually it the house of cards will fall. You can't take as much money out of the economy as it would require, and still expect it to grow. Taxes have deadweight losses... econ 101.
 
tommyguns2

tommyguns2

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Dec 25, 2010
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I've been trying to avoid this thread mostly. I don't want to garner a reputation here as a contrarian or overly politically combative. I made that post to mess with Rawdeal thats all.

TommyG; Do you place any correlation to our average life expectancy being below :
Denmark, Greece, Germany, Portugal, Finland, Belgium, UK, Ireland, Austria, New Zealand, Norway, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Canada, South Korea, France, Sweden, Israel, Italy, Iceland, Spain, Australia, Switzerland, Japan
And their stance on healthcare (available to all) nutrition (well educated and regulated) general well being (placed over corporate profits) ?

Honestly, I don't know, but I think it would be reasonable that single payer health care might improve life expectancy. For the sake of argument, I'm willing to concede it. Would you then be OK with other socialization or reduction in liberties if I could point to a positive correlation?

What if we had good, solid data that forcing everyone in the US to be a vegetarian, and/or go to bed by 10pm, and/or eliminate alcohol consumption would positively correlate with increased life expectancy. Would you or would most people be OK with that? If not, what is the difference, at least in principle?
 
Gms585

Gms585

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Mar 17, 2017
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Honestly, I don't know, but I think it would be reasonable that single payer health care might improve life expectancy. For the sake of argument, I'm willing to concede it. Would you then be OK with other socialization or reduction in liberties if I could point to a positive correlation?

What if we had good, solid data that forcing everyone in the US to be a vegetarian, and/or go to bed by 10pm, and/or eliminate alcohol consumption would positively correlate with increased life expectancy. Would you or would most people be OK with that? If not, what is the difference, at least in principle?

I really hate the smoke and mirror argument.
What liberty are you giving up socializing healthcare? Allow me to say NONE. NONE. ZERO.
The closest thing to a "liberty" you are giving up is $$$. Thats it. You can shop you healthcare now and you would give that up. However have you "shopped" health insurance? It's not like shopping ANY other type of insurance. It's all crap. If the only thing in the free market is overpriced and under preforming you are loosing nothing going to a socialized version. As I have said before here and everywhere I have this discussion there is one very important stipulation: No One Opts Out. NO ONE. Set it up like that and it will beat the socks off of all current US health care and I bet you in 10 years be the best world wide.
 
tommyguns2

tommyguns2

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Dec 25, 2010
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I really hate the smoke and mirror argument.
What liberty are you giving up socializing healthcare? Allow me to say NONE. NONE. ZERO.
The closest thing to a "liberty" you are giving up is $$$. Thats it. You can shop you healthcare now and you would give that up. However have you "shopped" health insurance? It's not like shopping ANY other type of insurance. It's all crap. If the only thing in the free market is overpriced and under preforming you are loosing nothing going to a socialized version. As I have said before here and everywhere I have this discussion there is one very important stipulation: No One Opts Out. NO ONE. Set it up like that and it will beat the socks off of all current US health care and I bet you in 10 years be the best world wide.

If we socialize healthcare then we're sharing the costs. If I'm paying some of your costs for healthcare, isn't it rationale for me to now care about whether you're living a constructive or destructive lifestyle? I'm not trying to be facetious here. If you're overweight and smoke you're driving up the health costs for everybody and causing me to pay for part of it. Doesn't the gov't then have an obligation to regulate your behavior to reduce costs? If not an obligation, at least an incentive? And since I'm paying for it, I'm now getting more involved in the personal decisions of others, which is the exact opposite of what I want as a libertarian.

I want you to have the liberty and freedom to make your choices, but once we start sharing the costs of your lifestyle choices, we are now interested in curtailing your freedoms when they raise the costs to everyone else.
 
Gms585

Gms585

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Mar 17, 2017
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If we socialize healthcare then we're sharing the costs. If I'm paying some of your costs for healthcare, isn't it rationale for me to now care about whether you're living a constructive or destructive lifestyle? I'm not trying to be facetious here. If you're overweight and smoke you're driving up the health costs for everybody and causing me to pay for part of it. Doesn't the gov't then have an obligation to regulate your behavior to reduce costs? If not an obligation, at least an incentive? And since I'm paying for it, I'm now getting more involved in the personal decisions of others, which is the exact opposite of what I want as a libertarian.

I want you to have the liberty and freedom to make your choices, but once we start sharing the costs of your lifestyle choices, we are now interested in curtailing your freedoms when they raise the costs to everyone else.

All those countries I listed not one is this totalitarian fasicst health crazy you fear going on.
Increased education (which actually works to get people to make better choices)
More preventative programs like fitness
Healthier ingredients
Better labeling
Fresher foods
Sure those things have happened. However as someone whos been to Ireland, England, Netherlands, Germany, Italy, Greece, Croatia, Canada all for good amounts of time. I never was unable to make the same shitty american health choices if I wanted to. I was even able to buy cigarettes, alcohol and drugs.
 
DaSarge

DaSarge

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Nov 20, 2014
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I'll start believing all those socialist countries are great, as soon as they stop trying to come to the United States to live.

And, riddle me this: The Muslims absolutely positively hate everything the western world has to offer. They hate the greed, the lifestyle, the Christian religion, they absolutely positively hate us infidels.......Yet, they keep wanting to come to the United States or other western countries to live. Why is that???
 
FlyingDragon

FlyingDragon

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Nov 4, 2010
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I'll start believing all those socialist countries are great, as soon as they stop trying to come to the United States to live.

And, riddle me this: The Muslims absolutely positively hate everything the western world has to offer. They hate the greed, the lifestyle, the Christian religion, they absolutely positively hate us infidels.......Yet, they keep wanting to come to the United States or other western countries to live. Why is that???

We have fresher curry?
 
Big_paul

Big_paul

MuscleHead
May 14, 2014
667
99
Subtracting emotion from this issue is nearly impossible I guess.

If insurance companies didn't try to improve their profit margins by denying coverage to people we probably wouldn't be in this mess. Weird shit they do. Like I have a co worker who had cancer in her left breast. Her old insurance plan covered her completely... except anything related to her breasts... I think we can all agree breasts deserve extra special protection.

But back to my point - denying coverage is the same as denying care in some cases. When you don't have coverage for a tumor on the pancreas and you need a pancreatic-duodenectomy that will bankrupt your family some may rather die.

From the group who is so often espousing their Christian values in political and legal arguments - taking care of the least among us and those who can't help themselves - that is something we can and should aspire to do.
Keep talking like this and it's going to be pretty hard to dislike you. We will see.
 
Gms585

Gms585

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Mar 17, 2017
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I'll start believing all those socialist countries are great, as soon as they stop trying to come to the United States to live.

And, riddle me this: The Muslims absolutely positively hate everything the western world has to offer. They hate the greed, the lifestyle, the Christian religion, they absolutely positively hate us infidels.......Yet, they keep wanting to come to the United States or other western countries to live. Why is that???

which countries are you referring to?
 
tommyguns2

tommyguns2

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Dec 25, 2010
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All those countries I listed not one is this totalitarian fasicst health crazy you fear going on.

Agreed. Yet none of those countries are "home of the free" either. I admit that I'm a libertarian, and consequently when weighing the trade off between liberty and security I always lean toward more liberty. Socializing health care isn't evil, it just results in a lower standard of living, IMO.

If it makes you feel any better, I think that the tide is moving in your favor. More and more Americans seem willing to hand over bits and pieces of individual liberty so that they can at least perceive to be more secure.

Under a proper constitutional structure, the federal gov't would have absolute NO role in health care in any way, shape or form, and each of the states would decide how much or how little they wish to regulate insurance, health care, etc. that would be great because each state would likely do things differently and over time it would become more evident that certain things are working better than others. With a single federal solution, we'll never know whether other things could work better.
 
HGH

HGH

MuscleHead
Jan 11, 2013
1,215
185
I'll start believing all those socialist countries are great, as soon as they stop trying to come to the United States to live.

And, riddle me this: The Muslims absolutely positively hate everything the western world has to offer. They hate the greed, the lifestyle, the Christian religion, they absolutely positively hate us infidels.......Yet, they keep wanting to come to the United States or other western countries to live. Why is that???

this is where you're wrong. there is no such thing as "The Muslims".

there are millions of Muslims form different sects (that don't even get along) all who have different thoughts and feelings about America. Including millions of Muslims who were born American.

The Us vs Them mentality you've fallen for is implanted into you by a wealthy few, who profit off these wars and manipulation of oil.
 
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