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Good Protein, bad Protein

Diesel0022

Diesel0022

MuscleHead
Oct 1, 2013
267
73
There is no such thing as whey protein isolate that has not been pasteurized at at least 57*c for 15-20 minutes. The industry standard I believe is 65*c for 20 minutes for ALL whey products. This cold-filtered process crap makes it sound like the wpi has never seen heat that strips and denatures the native protein. That's completely bogus. It can't be sold in America if it hasn't been pasteurized, end of story.

The good news is, there is a protein called "native milk protein isolate" that is pasteurized at the bare minimum temperature for the bare minimum length of time. Apparently whey protein denatures (and loses enzymes) at a temperature that falls between the bare minimum and the industry standard, and therefore CAN be pasteurized without "ruining" to some extent, the efficacy of the protein.

I don't have time to link some studies to this and I'm on my phone so it would be a pain, but I've been doing a lot of supplement industry research recently so I'm down for a healthy debate.

That's not true at all.

After working for 3 major supplement companies, you really see how dirty of an industry it is.
 
SAD

SAD

TID Board Of Directors
Feb 3, 2011
3,673
2,293
That's not true at all.

After working for 3 major supplement companies, you really see how dirty of an industry it is.

Unhealthy debate = "Not uh, you're wrong."

Healthy debate = Giving me some feedback as to HOW I'm wrong, because I know for a FACT that USDA and FDA require all milk derived products to be pasteurized and the ONLY approved way to pasteurize is with heat+time.
 
macgyver

macgyver

TID Board Of Directors
Nov 24, 2011
1,996
1,672
Unhealthy debate = "Not uh, you're wrong."

Healthy debate = Giving me some feedback as to HOW I'm wrong, because I know for a FACT that USDA and FDA require all milk derived products to be pasteurized and the ONLY approved way to pasteurize is with heat+time.



EXACTLY and well put SAD. Too many guys like to just spout stuff off. A good exchange of info goes both ways and we all learn from it.
 
Diesel0022

Diesel0022

MuscleHead
Oct 1, 2013
267
73
Unhealthy debate = "Not uh, you're wrong."

Healthy debate = Giving me some feedback as to HOW I'm wrong, because I know for a FACT that USDA and FDA require all milk derived products to be pasteurized and the ONLY approved way to pasteurize is with heat+time.

Dietary supplements are not required to be FDA approved, only regulated. The sad part is, regulation is far and few between.

I work for Xtreme Formulations right now, one of the very few protein companies I can recommend after working for 2 others and making internal friends at various companies such as VPX, Controlled Labs, SAN, Cellucor, MAN Sports, Universal, etc etc

Want an example? Protein labels have to list complete protein content. Axis Labs, Cellucor, and a few others have listed Glycine/Taurine in the protein matrix. By FDA regulation these should be included in a separate "Supplement Panel." But the cheap nitrogen tests performed show it as whole protein due to aminos being nitrogenous compounds. Axis Labs Clutch whey claims 24g, but only existentially contains 16.8g PRO/serving.

So where is the FDA? Piss poor regulation.

I will not drop the two companies names, that I am aware of, that use out of country sources for their raws. These sources do not have the proper standards and regulations when compared to sources such as Glanbia and other verifiable/reputable manufacturers.
 
SAD

SAD

TID Board Of Directors
Feb 3, 2011
3,673
2,293
Ok.

Barring factors out of our control, and assuming we trust the supplier and their supplier, and also assuming the company follows the law regardless of how lax it is (completely ignoring why a company would risk getting customers sick with unpasteurized whey (as you implied two companies do)), the question that we are attempting to answer on some level is whether or not it matters if the protein is denatured during the pasteurization process.

To address that, I've read before about the particular way whole proteins are unfolded by our digestive tract. I couldn't find much of anything from an acceptable source, but I ripped this from another forum because the guy sums it up really well.

First, whey proteins can be derived in two ways 1) as a bi-product of the cheese making process, and 2) directly from skim milk in a process of extraction of micellar casein (native whey processing).

Second, whey protein can be denatured outside of your body and inside of your body. There are two processes that can eventually denature whey outside your body: 1)pasteurization - two times during the cheese making process, and 2) and by adding of citric acid to whey after it has been separated from the curd (both of these are in the cheese making. When whey is made from skim milk direclty there is only one pasteurization and no acidification).

Studies (can't post links yet otherwise I'd provide the links to the research papers) show that pasteurization denatures whey only partially (when milk is heated to 72C/162F). Both beta-lactoglobulin, alpha-lactalbumin can make it trough this process. Beta-lactoglobulin is more susceptible to damage, but it happens at higher temperatures.

What can damage these native fractions is low PH. In cheese making PH can go as low as 4.0 and even lower. At this point the native fractions suffer damage, but what really renders them denatured is the addition of citric acid later in the processing of whey. The PH goes to 3.0.

Now, you say, if PH of 3.0 will denature whey, what happens in the human stomach where the PH can range from 1.0 to 3.0? Well, it took me literally 3 days of digging trough all available research papers, but it seems the body actually must break down the native fractions to other smaller peptides that actually exhibit the health benefits associated with them (apart from the immune-boosting properties of cysteine-cystine to glutathione - these exist in both undenatured and denatured whey but the ratio is different - more cystine in the denatured).

So, it works like this: native whey fractions enter the stomach, the stomach recognizes them for what they are and it secrets the right amounts of the proteolitic enzymes pepsin, trypsin and chymotrypsin. They unfold the peptides to the right forms of smaller peptides that act in a positive, health supporting way in the body. It's like a key lock and a key that fits perfectly in it. This doesn't happen when the whey fractions are denatured. The enzymes still break them down into smaller peptides, but they are not the ones, associated with denatured whey and its properties. So, in effect the native whey fractions do not survive the low PH in the stomach unchanged, but are not destroyed/disabled either. In fact, one study demonstrated that one of these fractions - lactoferrin - can completely survive the action of the proteolitic juices and can move down the digestive tract intact.

In summary, you have to start with undenatured whey if you want the immune-boosting, anti-hypertensive, anti-oxidant, etc. properties of whey. Don't worry what happens in the body. The body knows how to deal with them in order to take advantage of their unique properties. On the other hand, if you start with denatured whey protein the body will still use it as smaller peptides and individual amino acids. It will also make glutathione from the cysteine amino acid regardless of the ratio cysteine-cystine (cystine simply takes one more step to convert to cysteine).
 
Diesel0022

Diesel0022

MuscleHead
Oct 1, 2013
267
73
He missed something, denaturation is reversible.

Just so I'm clear...A protein will not be fully unfolded if, say, the covalent disulfide bonding between cysteine residues remains. Protein can unfold without cysteine bonds being broken, but the links will likely be destabilized as a result (disulfide cysteine bonds are mutually cross-stabilizing with protein conformation).

I think the actual processing of the protein is a valid concern. I personally opt for cold-filtration proteins, which most high quality companies put out anyway. Also take into account, with CF and IE only around 0-3% denatured, whereas conventional whey extraction methods can result in denaturization by up to 15%. Which again, is nothing to worry about.

Saying that denatured proteins are a suboptimal choice of proteins is like saying you don't eat as much carbohydrates when eating mashed potatoes instead of unmashed ones. It's ridiculous.
 
Last edited:
woodswise

woodswise

TID Board Of Directors
Apr 29, 2012
4,334
1,340
WW, I have questioned that "protein as a source of energy for the body" claim. Maybe in an extreme case when the body has gone into survival mode.

I understand your question and wondered the same thing even as I wrote my post.

I think in situations of severe Kcalorie defecit, the body does consume muscle protein. But the question is whether it is using it for energy, or simply breaking down cells and cannibalizing their energy and dumping the aminos in your urine.

And even though I have a degree in biology (from 20+ years ago) and even though I looked at the Krebs cycle to see if I could find where protein can be used instead of carbs, I could not find the answer to that question.

So I guess while it is possible protein will be used as fuel for the cells/mitochondria in the Krebs cycle instead of carbs, but I have not yet seen any science that says it is. And frankly, answering the question will take some time and research, so I can't do it right now.
 
SAD

SAD

TID Board Of Directors
Feb 3, 2011
3,673
2,293
He missed something, denaturation is reversible.

Just so I'm clear...A protein will not be fully unfolded if, say, the covalent disulfide bonding between cysteine residues remains. Protein can unfold without cysteine bonds being broken, but the links will likely be destabilized as a result (disulfide cysteine bonds are mutually cross-stabilizing with protein conformation).

I think the actual processing of the protein is a valid concern. I personally opt for cold-filtration proteins, which most high quality companies put out anyway. Also take into account, with CF and IE only around 0-3% denatured, whereas conventional whey extraction methods can result in denaturization by up to 15%. Which again, is nothing to worry about.

Saying that denatured proteins are a suboptimal choice of proteins is like saying you don't eat as much carbohydrates when eating mashed potatoes instead of unmashed ones. It's ridiculous.


Denaturation is not easily reversed, and would never be done by the stomach in response to ingesting denatured proteins, and I fail to see how that makes an argument for either case (or are you just snatching a tangent that allows you to flex your mental muscle regardless of its relevance?).

Listen guy, we get it. You have schooling and seem somewhat intelligent, but nobody cares about your wealth of knowledge if you can't deliver in a way that helps instead of being a condescending, pedantic jackass. Not just this thread, but multiple others as well. You could help here. It would be nice if that's what you did.
 
Diesel0022

Diesel0022

MuscleHead
Oct 1, 2013
267
73
Denaturation is not easily reversed, and would never be done by the stomach in response to ingesting denatured proteins, and I fail to see how that makes an argument for either case (or are you just snatching a tangent that allows you to flex your mental muscle regardless of its relevance?).

Listen guy, we get it. You have schooling and seem somewhat intelligent, but nobody cares about your wealth of knowledge if you can't deliver in a way that helps instead of being a condescending, pedantic jackass. Not just this thread, but multiple others as well. You could help here. It would be nice if that's what you did.

Actually, denaturation is very easily reversed. Widely known as renaturation. It's reliable on the enzyme catalysis. Which, unless we are focusing specifically on egg proteins, is a non-issue, once the denaturing influence is removed.


Campbell, N. A., Reece, J.B., Meyers, N., Urry, L. A., Cain, M.L., Wasserman, S.A., Minorsky, P.V., Jackson, R.B. (2009), Biology (8th, Australian version ed.), Sydney: Pearson Education Australia

avatar887_7.gif
 
SAD

SAD

TID Board Of Directors
Feb 3, 2011
3,673
2,293
Actually, denaturation is very easily reversed. Widely known as renaturation. It's reliable on the enzyme catalysis. Which, unless we are focusing specifically on egg proteins, is a non-issue, once the denaturing influence is removed.


Campbell, N. A., Reece, J.B., Meyers, N., Urry, L. A., Cain, M.L., Wasserman, S.A., Minorsky, P.V., Jackson, R.B. (2009), Biology (8th, Australian version ed.), Sydney: Pearson Education Australia

avatar887_7.gif


That is incorrect sir. If you google "denaturation of proteins", you'll see that once a protein has been denatured it is very rarely reversed. Tell ya what diesel0022, you win. You can have all of the hydro-whey and iso-100, and I'll take my native milk protein isolate from truenutrition.
 
Diesel0022

Diesel0022

MuscleHead
Oct 1, 2013
267
73
Google vs. Credited/Published Study

I've looked through your post history, and it is egregiously out of character for you to argue a moot point.

So I'm going to quote something a renowned physiologist/pharmacologist once told me:

Sometimes "you're wrong" is best. Saves you the time of having to respond over and over and over again
 
Last edited:
Jasthace

Jasthace

MuscleHead
May 29, 2011
581
89
Thanks for everyones posts so far . its been an interesting thread.
 
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